Memorial and Remonstrance and Notes of Debates in the Federal Convention

Maryland Took His Seat. In Committee Of The Whole

[71] Edward Carrington wrote to Jefferson from New York, June 9, 1787:

"The debates and proceedings of the Convention are kept in profound secrecy--opinions of the probable result of their deliberations can only be formed from the prevailing impressions of men of reflection and understanding--these are reducible to two schemes--the first, a consolidation of the whole Empire into one republic, leaving in the States nothing more than subordinate courts for facilitating the administration of the Laws--the second an investiture of the foederal sovereignty with full and independent authority as to the Trade, Revenues, and forces of the union, and the rights of peace and war, together with a negative upon all the acts of the State legislatures.

The first idea, I apprehend, would be impracticable, and therefore do not suppose it can be adopted--general Laws through a Country embracing so many climates, productions, and manners as the United States, would operate many oppressions & a general legislature would be found incompetent to the formation of local ones, as a majority would in every instance, be ignorant of, and unaffected by the objects of legislation.... Something like the second will probably be formed--indeed I am certain that nothing less than what will give the foederal sovereignty a compleat controul over the state Governments, will be thought worthy of discussion--such a scheme constructed upon well adjusted principles would certainly give us stability and importance as a nation, and if the Executive powers can be sufficiently checked, must be eligible--unless the whole has a decided influence over the parts, the constant effort will be to resume the delegated powers, and there cannot be an inducement in the foederal sovereignty to refuse its assent to an innocent act of a State.... The Eastern opinions are for a total surrender of the state Sovereignties, and indeed some amongst them go to a monarchy at once--they have verged to anarchy, while to the southward we have only felt an inconvenience, and their proportionate disposition to an opposite extreme is a natural consequence."--Jeff. MSS.

M^r Gerry, according to previous notice given by him, moved "that the national Executive should be elected by the Executives of the States whose proportion of votes should be the same with that allowed to the States in the election of the Senate." If the appointm^t should be made by the Nat^l Legislature, it would lessen that independence of the Executive which ought to prevail, would give birth to intrigue and corruption between the Executive & Legislature previous to the election, and to partiality in the Executive afterwards to the friends who promoted him. Some other mode therefore appeared to him necessary. He proposed that of appointing by the State Executives as most analogous to the principle observed in electing the other branches of the Nat^l Gov^t; the first branch being chosen by the people of the States, & the 2^d by the Legislatures of the States, he did not see any objection ag^{st} letting the Executive be appointed by the Executives of the States. He supposed the Executives would be most likely to select the fittest men, and that it would be their interest to support the man of their own choice.

M^r Randolph urged strongly the inexpediency of M^r Gerry's mode of appointing the Nat^l Executive. The confidence of the people would not be secured by it to the Nat^l magistrate. The small States would lose all chance of an appointm^t from within themselves. Bad appointments would be made; the Executives of the States being little conversant with characters not within their own small spheres. The State Executives too notwithstanding their constitutional independence, being in fact dependent on the State Legislatures will generally be guided by the views of the latter, and prefer either favorites within the States, or such as it may be expected will be most partial to the interests of the State. A Nat^l Executive thus chosen will not be likely to defend with becoming vigilance & firmness the National rights ag^{st} State encroachments. Vacancies also must happen. How can these be filled? He could not suppose either that the Executives would feel the interest in supporting the Nat^l Executive which had been imagined. They will not cherish the great Oak which is to reduce them to paltry shrubs.

On the question for referring the appointment of the Nat^l Executive to the State Executives as prop^d by M^r Gerry Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. div^d. M^d no. V^a no. S. C. no. Geo. no.[72]

[72] "Carried against the motion, 10 noes, and Delaware divided."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 111. The Journal also includes North Carolina among the noes.--Journal of the Federal Convention, 110.

M^r Patterson moves that the Committee resume the clause relating to the rule of suffrage in the Nat^l Legislature.

M^r Brearly[73] seconds him. He was sorry he said that any question on this point was brought into view. It had been much agitated in Cong^s at the time of forming the Confederation, and was then rightly settled by allowing to each sovereign State an equal vote. Otherwise the smaller States must have been destroyed instead of being saved. The substitution of a ratio, he admitted carried fairness on the face of it; but on a deeper examination was unfair and unjust. Judging of the disparity of the States by the quota of Cong^s, Virg^a would have 16 votes, and Georgia but one. A like proportion to the others will make the whole number ninety. There will be 3 large states, and 10 small ones. The large States by which he meant Mass^{ts} Pen^a & Virg^a will carry every thing before them. It had been admitted, and was known to him from facts within N. Jersey that where large & small counties were united into a district for electing representatives for the district, the large counties always carried their point, and Consequently that the large States would do so. Virg^a with her sixteen votes will be a solid column indeed, a formidable phalanx. While Georgia with her Solitary vote, and the other little States will be obliged to throw themselves constantly into the scale of some large one, in order to have any weight at all. He had come to the convention with a view of being as useful as he could in giving energy and stability to the federal Government. When the proposition for destroying the equality of votes came forward, he was astonished, he was alarmed. Is it fair then it will be asked that Georgia should have an equal vote with Virg^a. He would not say it was. What remedy then? One only, that a map of the U. S. be spread out, that all the existing boundaries be erased, and that a new partition of the whole be made into 13 equal parts.

[73] "Mr. Brearly is a man of good, rather than of brilliant parts. He is a Judge of the Supreme Court of New Jersey, and is very much in the esteem of the people. As an Orator he has little to boast of, but as a Man he has every virtue to recommend him. Mr. Brearly is about 40 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 327.

M^r Patterson considered the proposition for a proportional representation as striking at the existence of the lesser States. He w^d premise however to an investigation of this question some remarks on the nature structure and powers of the Convention. The Convention he said was formed in pursuance of an Act of Cong^s that this act was recited in several of the Commissions, particularly that of Mass^{ts} which he required to be read: that the amendment of the Confederacy was the object of all the laws and Commissions on the subject: that the articles of the Confederation were therefore the proper basis of all the proceedings of the Convention. We ought to keep within its limits, or we should be charged by our Constituents with usurpation, that the people of America were sharpsighted and not to be deceived. But the Commissions under which we acted were not only the measure of our power, they denoted also the sentiments of the States on the subject of our deliberation. The idea of a National Gov^t as contradistinguished from a federal one, never entered into the mind of any of them, and to the public mind we must accommodate ourselves. We have no power to go beyond the federal Scheme, and if we had the people are not ripe for any other. We must follow the people; the people will not follow us.--The proposition could not be maintained whether considered in reference to us as a nation, or as a confederacy. A confederacy supposes sovereignty in the members composing it & sovereignty supposes equality. If we are to be considered as a nation, all State distinctions must be abolished, the whole must be thrown into hotchpot, and when an equal division is made, then there may be fairly an equality of representation. He held up Virg^a Mass^{ts} & P^a as the three large States, and the other ten as small ones; repeating the calculations of M^r Brearly, as to the disparity of votes which w^d take place, and affirming that the small States would never agree to it. He said there was no more reason that a great individual State contributing much, should have more votes than a small one contributing little, than that a rich individual citizen should have more votes than an indigent one. If the rateable property of A was to that of B as 40 to 1, ought A for that reason to have 40 times as many votes as B. Such a principle would never be admitted, and if it were admitted would put B entirely at the mercy of A. As A has more to be protected than B so he ought to contribute more for the common protection. The same may be said of a large State w^{ch} has more to be protected than a small one. Give the large States an influence in proportion to their magnitude, and what will be the consequence? Their ambition will be proportionally increased, and the small States will have every thing to fear. It was once proposed by Galloway & some others that America should be represented in the British Parl^t and then be bound by its laws. America could not have been entitled to more than 1/3 of the n^o of Representatives which would fall to the share of G. B. Would American rights & interests have been safe under an authority thus constituted? It has been said that if a Nat^l Gov^t is to be formed so as to operate on the people, and not on the States, the representatives ought to be drawn from the people. But why so? May not a Legislature filled by the State Legislatures operate on the people who chuse the State Legislatures? or may not a practicable coercion be found. He admitted that there was none such in the existing System.--He was attached strongly to the plan of the existing Confederacy, in which the people chuse their Legislative representatives; and the Legislatures their federal representatives. No other amendments were wanting than to mark the orbits of the States with due precision, and provide for the use of coercion, which was the great point. He alluded to the hint thrown out heretofore by M^r Wilson of the necessity to which the large States might be reduced of confederating among themselves, by a refusal of the others to concur. Let them unite if they please, but let them remember that they have no authority to compel the others to unite. N. Jersey will never confederate on the plan before the Committee. She would be swallowed up. He had rather submit to a monarch, to a despot, than to such a fate. He would not only oppose the plan here but on his return home do every thing in his power to defeat it there.

M^r Wilson, hoped if the Confederacy should be dissolved, that a majority, that a minority of the States would unite for their safety. He entered elaborately into the defence of a proportional representation, stating for his first position that as all authority was derived from the people, equal numbers of people ought to have an equal n^o of representatives, and different numbers of people different numbers of representatives. This principle had been improperly violated in the Confederation, owing to the urgent circumstances of the time. As to the case of A. & B. stated by M^r Patterson, he observed that in districts as large as the States, the number of people was the best measure of their comparative wealth. Whether therefore wealth or numbers were to form the ratio it would be the same. M^r P. admitted persons, not property to be the measure of suffrage. Are not the Citizens of Pen^a equal to those of N. Jersey? does it require 150 of the former to balance 50 of the latter? Representatives of different districts ought clearly to hold the same proportion to each other, as their respective Constituents hold to each other. If the small States will not confederate on this plan, Pen^a & he presumed some other States, would not confederate on any other. We have been told that each State being sovereign, all are equal. So each man is naturally a sovereign over himself, and all men are therefore naturally equal. Can he retain this equality when he becomes a member of Civil Government. He can not. As little can a Sovereign State, when it becomes a member of a federal govern^t. If N. J. will not part with her sovereignty it is vain to talk of Gov^t. A new partition of the States is desirable, but evidently & totally impracticable.

M^r Williamson illustrated the cases by a comparison of the different States, to Counties of different sizes within the same State; observing that proportional representation was admitted to be just in the latter case, and could not therefore be fairly contested in the former.

The Question being about to be put M^r Patterson hoped that as so much depended on it, it might be thought best to postpone the decision till tomorrow, which was done, nem. con.

The Com^e rose & the House adjourned.

MONDAY, JUNE 11^{TH} M^R ABRAHAM BALDWIN FROM

Georgia Took His Seat. In Committee Of The Whole

The clause concerning the rule of suffrage in the Nat^l Legislature postponed on Saturday was resumed.

M^r Sherman proposed that the proportion of suffrage in the 1^{st} branch should be according to the respective numbers of free inhabitants; and that in the second branch or Senate, each State should have one vote and no more. He said as the States would remain possessed of certain individual rights, each State ought to be able to protect itself: otherwise a few large States will rule the rest. The House of Lords in England he observed had certain particular rights under the Constitution, and hence they have an equal vote with the House of Commons that they may be able to defend their rights.

M^r Rutlidge proposed that the proportion of suffrage in the 1^{st} branch should be according to the quotas of contribution. The justice of this rule he said could not be contested. M^r Butler urged the same idea: adding that money was power; and that the States ought to have weight in the Gov^t in proportion to their wealth.

M^r King & M^r Wilson,[74] in order to bring the question to a point moved "that the right of suffrage in the first branch of the national Legislature ought not to be according [to] the rule established in the articles of Confederation, but according to some equitable ratio of representation." The clause so far as it related to suffrage in the first branch was postponed in order to consider this motion.

[74] In the printed Journal Mr. Rutlidge is named as the seconder of the motion.--Madison's Note.

M^r Dickenson contended for the actual contributions of the States as the rule of their representation & suffrage in the first branch. By thus connecting the interests of the States with their duty, the latter would be sure to be performed.

M^r King remarked that it was uncertain what mode might be used in levying a National revenue; but that it was probable, imposts would be one source of it. If the actual contributions were to be the rule the non-importing States, as Con^t & N. Jersey, w^d be in a bad situation indeed. It might so happen that they w^d have no representation. This situation of particular States had been always one powerful argument in favor of the 5 Per C^t impost.

The question being ab^t to be put Doc^r Franklin s^d he had thrown his ideas of the matter on a paper w^{ch} Mr. Wilson read to the Committee in the words following--Mr. Chairman

It has given me great pleasure to observe that till this point, the proportion of representation, came before us, our debates were carried on with great coolness & temper. If any thing of a contrary kind, has on this occasion appeared. I hope it will not be repeated; for we are sent here to consult, not to contend, with each other; and declarations of a fixed opinion, and of determined resolution, never to change it, neither enlighten nor convince us. Positiveness and warmth on one side, naturally beget their like on the other; and tend to create and augment discord & division in a great concern, wherein harmony & Union are extremely necessary to give weight to our Councils, and render them effectual in promoting & securing the common good.

I must own that I was originally of opinion it would be better if every member of Congress, or our national Council, were to consider himself rather as a representative of the whole, than as an Agent for the interests of a particular State; in which case the proportion of members for each State would be of less consequence, & it would not be very material whether they voted by States or individually. But as I find this is not to be expected, I now think the number of Representatives should bear some proportion to the number of the Represented; and that the decisions sh^d be by the majority of members, not by the majority of the States. This is objected to from an apprehension that the greater States would then swallow up the smaller. I do not at present clearly see what advantage the greater States could propose to themselves by swallowing up the smaller, and therefore do not apprehend they would attempt it. I recollect that in the beginning of this Century, When the Union was proposed of the two Kingdoms, England & Scotland, the Scotch Patriots were full of fears, that unless they had an equal number of Representatives in Parliament, they should be ruined by the superiority of the English. They finally agreed however that the different proportions of importance in the Union, of the two Nations should be attended to, whereby they were to have only forty members in the House of Commons, and only sixteen in the House of Lords; A very great inferiority of numbers! And yet to this day I do not recollect that any thing has been done in the Parliament of Great Britain to the prejudice of Scotland; and whoever looks over the lists of Public officers, Civil & Military of that nation will find I believe that the North Britons enjoy at least their full proportion of emolument.

But, sir, in the present mode of voting by States, it is equally in the power of the lesser States to swallow up the greater; and this is mathematically demonstrable. Suppose for example, that 7 smaller States had each 3 members in the House, and the 6 larger to have one with another 6 members; and that upon a question, two members of each smaller State should be in the affirmative and one in the Negative, they would make

Affirmatives 14 Negatives 7

And that all the larger States should be unanimously in the Negative, they would make Negatives 36 --- In all 43

It is then apparent that the 14 carry the question against the 43, and the minority overpowers the majority, contrary to the common practice of Assemblies in all Countries and Ages.

The greater States Sir are naturally as unwilling to have their property left in the disposition of the smaller, as the smaller are to have theirs in the disposition of the greater. An honorable gentleman has, to avoid this difficulty, hinted a proposition of equalizing the States. It appears to me an equitable one, and I should, for my own part, not be against such a measure, if it might be found practicable. Formerly, indeed, when almost every province had a different Constitution, some with greater others with fewer privileges, it was of importance to the borderers when their boundaries were contested, whether by running the division lines, they were placed on one side or the other. At present when such differences are done away, it is less material. The Interest of a State is made up of the interests of its individual members. If they are not injured, the State is not injured. Small States are more easily well & happily governed than large ones. If therefore in such an equal division, it should be found necessary to diminish Pennsylvania, I should not be averse to the giving a part of it to N. Jersey, and another to Delaware. But as there would probably be considerable difficulties in adjusting such a division; and however equally made at first, it would be continually varying by the augmentation of inhabitants in some States, and their fixed proportion in others; and thence frequent occasion for new divisions, I beg leave to propose for the consideration of the Committee another mode, which appears to me to be as equitable, more easily carried into practice, and more permanent in its nature.

Let the weakest State say what proportion of money or force it is able and willing to furnish for the general purposes of the Union.

Let all the others oblige themselves to furnish each an equal proportion.

The whole of these joint supplies to be absolutely in the disposition of Congress.

The Congress in this case to be composed of an equal number of Delegates from each State.

And their decisions to be by the Majority of individual members voting.

If these joint and equal supplies should on particular occasions not be sufficient, Let Congress make requisitions on the richer and more powerful States for further aids, to be voluntarily afforded, leaving to each State the right of considering the necessity and utility of the aid desired, and of giving more or less as it should be found proper.

This mode is not new. It was formerly practised with success by the British Government with respect to Ireland and the Colonies. We sometimes gave even more than they expected, or thought just to accept; and in the last war carried on while we were united, they gave us back in 5 years a million Sterling. We should probably have continued such voluntary contributions, whenever the occasions appeared to require them for the common good of the Empire. It was not till they chose to force us, and to deprive us of the merit and pleasure of voluntary contributions that we refused & resisted. Those contributions however were to be disposed of at the pleasure of a Government in which we had no representative. I am therefore persuaded, that they will not be refused to one in which the Representation shall be equal.

My learned colleague (M^r Wilson) has already mentioned that the present method of voting by States, was submitted to originally by Congress, under a conviction of its impropriety, inequality, and injustice. This appears in the words of their Resolution. It is of Sep^r 6. 1774. The words are

"Resolved that in determining questions in this Cong^s each Colony or province shall have one vote: The Cong^s not being possessed of or at present able to procure materials for ascertaining the importance of each Colony."

On the question for agreeing to M^r King's and M^r Wilson's motion it passed in the affirmative.

Mass^{ts} ay. C^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

It was then moved by M^r Rutlidge, 2^{ded} by M^r Butler to add to the words "equitable ratio of representation" at the end of the motion just agreed to, the words "according to the quotas of contribution." On motion of M^r Wilson seconded by M^r Pinkney, this was postponed; in order to add, after the words "equitable ratio of representation" the words following: "in proportion to the whole number of white & other free Citizens & inhabitants of every age sex & condition including those bound to servitude for a term of years and three fifths of all other persons not comprehended in the foregoing description, except Indians not paying taxes, in each State," this being the rule in the Act of Congress agreed to by eleven States, for apportioning quotas of revenue on the States, and requiring a Census only every 5, 7, or 10 years.

M^r Gerry thought property not the rule of representation. Why then sh^d the blacks, who were property in the South, be in the rule of representation more than the Cattle & horses of the North.[75]

[75] After Gerry spoke, according to Yates, "Mr. Madison was of opinion at present, to fix the standard of representation, and let the detail be the business of a sub-committee."--Secret Proceedings, p. 116.

On the question,--Mass: Con: N. Y. Pen: Mary^d Virg^a N. C. S. C. & Geo: were in the affirmative: N. J. & Del: in the negative.

M^r Sherman moved that a question be taken whether each State shall have one vote in the 2^d branch. Every thing he said depended on this. The smaller States would never agree to the plan on any other principle than an equality of suffrage in this branch. M^r Elsworth[76] seconded the motion.

[76] "M^r Elsworth is a Judge of the Supreme Court in Connecticut;--he is Gentleman of a clear, deep, and copius understanding; eloquent, and connected in public debate; and always attentive to his duty. He is very happy in a reply, and choice in selecting such parts of his adversary's arguments as he finds make the strongest impressions,--in order to take off the force of them, so as to admit the power of his own. M^r Elsworth is about 37 years of age, a Man much respected for his integrity, and venerated for his abilities."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 326.

On the question for allowing each State one vote in the 2^d branch,

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Wilson & M^r Hamilton moved that the right of suffrage in the 2^d branch ought to be according to the same rule as in the 1^{st} branch. On this question for making the ratio of representation the same in the 2^d as in the 1^{st} branch it passed in the affirmative;

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Resol: 11, for guarantying Republican Gov^t & territory to each State, being considered--the words "or partition," were, on motion of M^r Madison added, after the words "voluntary junction;"

Mas. N. Y. P. V^a N. C. S. C. G. ay. Con: N. J. Del: M^d no.

M^r Read disliked the idea of guarantying territory. It abetted the idea of distinct States w^{ch} would be a perpetual source of discord. There can be no cure for this evil but in doing away States altogether and uniting them all into one great Society.

Alterations having been made in the Resolution, making it read, "that a Republican Constitution & its existing laws ought to be guaranteed to each State by the U. States," the whole was agreed to nem. con.[77]

[77] Yates attributes this amendment to Madison. "Mr. Madison moved an amendment, to add to or alter the resolution as follows: The republican constitutions and the existing laws of each state, to be guaranteed by the United States."--Secret Proceedings, etc., 116.

Resolution 13. for amending the national Constitution hereafter without consent of the Nat^l Legislature being considered, Several members did not see the necessity of the Resolution at all, nor the propriety of making the consent of the Nat^l Legisl. unnecessary.

Col. Mason urged the necessity of such a provision. The plan now to be formed will certainly be defective, as the Confederation has been found on trial to be. Amendments therefore will be necessary, and it will be better to provide for them, in an easy, regular and Constitutional way than to trust to chance and violence. It would be improper to require the consent of the Nat^l Legislature, because they may abuse their power, and refuse their consent on that very account. The opportunity for such an abuse, may be the fault of the Constitution calling for amendm^t.

M^r Randolph enforced these arguments.

The words, "without requiring the consent of the Nat^l Legislature" were postponed. The other provision in the clause passed nem. con.

Resolution 14. requiring oaths from the members of the State Gov^{ts} to observe the Nat^l Constitution & laws, being considered,[78]

[78] "Mr. Williamson. This resolve will be unnecessary, as the union will become the law of the land."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 117.

M^r Sherman opposed it as unnecessarily intruding into the State jurisdictions.

M^r Randolph considered it necessary to prevent that competition between the National Constitution & laws & those of the particular States, which had already been felt. The officers of the States are already under oath to the States. To preserve a due impartiality they ought to be equally bound to the Nat^l Gov^t. The Nat^l authority needs every support we can give it. The Executive & Judiciary of the States, notwithstanding their nominal independence on the State Legislatures are in fact, so dependent on them, that unless they be brought under some tie to the Nat^l System, they will always lean too much to the State systems, whenever a contest arises between the two.

M^r Gerry did not like the clause. He thought there was as much reason for requiring an oath of fidelity to the States from Nat^l officers, as vice versa.

M^r Luther Martin moved to strike out the words requiring such an oath from the State officers, viz "within the several States," observing that if the new oath should be contrary to that already taken by them it would be improper; if coincident the oaths already taken will be sufficient.

On the question for striking out as proposed by Mr. L. Martin

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on whole Resolution as proposed by M^r Randolph;

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Com^e rose & House Adj^d.

TUESDAY JUNE 12^{TH} IN COMMITTEE OF WHOLE

The Question taken on the Resolution 15, to wit, referring the new system to the people of the States for ratification it passed in the affirmative Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a[79] ay. Del. div^d. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

[79] Pennsylvania omitted in the printed Journal. The vote is there entered as of June 11th.--Madison's Note.

M^r Sherman & M^r Elseworth moved to fill the blank left in the 4^{th} Resolution for the periods of electing the members of the first branch with the words, "every year;" Mr. Sherman observing that he did it in order to bring on some question.

M^r Rutlidge proposed "every two years."

M^r Jennifer[80] prop^d, "every three years," observing that the too great frequency of elections rendered the people indifferent to them, and made the best men unwilling to engage in so precarious a service.

[80] "M^r Jenifer is a Gentleman of fortune in Maryland;--he is always in good humour, and never fails to make his company pleased with him. He sits silent in the Senate, and seems to be conscious that he is no politician. From his long continuance in single life, no doubt but he has made the vow of celibacy. He speaks warmly of the Ladies notwithstanding. M^r Jenifer is about 55 years of Age, and once served as Aid de Camp to Major Gen^l Lee."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 330.

M^r Madison seconded the motion for three years. Instability is one of the great vices of our republics, to be remedied. Three years will be necessary, in a Government so extensive, for members to form any knowledge of the various interests of the States to which they do not belong, and of which they can know but little from the situation and affairs of their own. One year will be almost consumed in preparing for and travelling to & from the seat of national business.

M^r Gerry. The people of New England will never give up the point of annual elections, they know of the transition made in England from triennial to septennial elections, and will consider such an innovation here as the prelude to a like usurpation. He considered annual elections as the only defence of the people ag^{st} tyranny. He was as much ag^{st} a triennial House as ag^{st} a hereditary Executive.

M^r Madison, observed that if the opinions of the people were to be our guide, it w^d be difficult to say what course we ought to take. No member of the Convention could say what the opinions of his Constituents were at this time; much less could he say what they would think if possessed of the information & lights possessed by the members here; & still less what would be their way of thinking 6 or 12 months hence. We ought to consider what was right & necessary in itself for the attainment of a proper Governm^t. A plan adjusted to this idea will recommend itself--The respectability of this convention will give weight to their recommendation of it. Experience will be constantly urging the adoption of it, and all the most enlightened & respectable citizens will be its advocates. Should we fall short of the necessary & proper point, this influential class of Citizens, will be turned against the plan, and little support in opposition to them can be gained to it from the unreflecting multitude.

M^r Gerry repeated his opinion that it was necessary to consider what the people would approve. This had been the policy of all Legislators. If the reasoning of Mr. Madison were just, and we supposed a limited Monarchy the best form in itself, we ought to recommend it, tho' the genius of the people was decidedly adverse to it, and having no hereditary distinctions among us, we were destitute of the essential materials for such an innovation.

On the question for the triennial election of the 1^{st} branch

Mass. no. (M^r King ay.) M^r Ghorum wavering. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The words requiring members of y^e 1^{st} branch to be of the age of ---- years were struck out Maryland alone no. The words "liberal compensation for members," being consid^d M^r Madison moves to insert the words, "& fixt." He observed that it would be improper to leave the members of the Nat^l legislature to be provided for by the State Legisl^s, because it would create an improper dependence; and to leave them to regulate their own wages, was an indecent thing, and might in time prove a dangerous one. He thought wheat or some other article of which the average price throughout a reasonable period preceding might be settled in some convenient mode, would form a proper standard.

Col. Mason seconded the motion; adding that it would be improper for other reasons to leave the wages to be regulated by the States. 1. the different States would make different provision for their representatives, and an inequality would be felt among them, whereas he thought they ought to be in all respects equal. 2. the parsimony of the States might reduce the provision so low that as had already happened in choosing delegates to Congress, the question would be not who were most fit to be chosen, but who were most willing to serve.

On the question for inserting the words, "and fixt"

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

Doc^r Franklyn said he approved of the amendment just made for rendering the salaries as fixed as possible; but disliked the word "liberal." He would prefer the word moderate if it was necessary to substitute any other. He remarked the tendency of abuses in every case, to grow of themselves when once begun, and related very pleasantly the progression in ecclesiastical benefices, from the first departure from the gratuitous provision for the Apostles, to the establishment of the papal system. The word "liberal" was struck out nem con.

On the motion of M^r Pierce, that the wages should be paid out of the National Treasury,

Mass^{ts} ay. C^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. G. ay.

Question on the clause relating to term of service & compensation of 1^{st} branch,

Mass^{ts} ay. C^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On a question for striking out the "ineligibility of members of the Nat^l Legis: to State offices,"

Mass^{ts} div^d. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On the question for agreeing to the clause as amended,

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On a question for making members of the Nat^l Legislature ineligible to any office under the Nat^l Gov^t for the term of 3 years after ceasing to be members,

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question for such ineligibility for one year,

Mass^{ts} ay. C^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On question moved by Mr. Pinckney, for striking out "incapable of re-election into 1^{st} branch of the Nat^l Legisl. for ---- years, and subject to recall" ag^d to nem. con.

On question for striking out from the Resol: 5 the words requiring members of the Senatorial branch to be of the age of ---- years at least

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. div^d. S. C. no. Geo. div^d.

On the question for filling the blank with 30 years as the qualification; it was agreed to,

Mass^{ts} ay. C^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Spaight moved to fill the blank for the duration of the appointm^{ts} to the 2^d branch of the National Legislature with the words "7 years."

M^r Sherman, thought 7 years too long. He grounded his opposition he said on the principle that if they did their duty well, they would be reelected. And if they acted amiss, an earlier opportunity should be allowed for getting rid of them. He preferred 5 years which w^d be between the terms of the 1^{st} branch & of the executive.

M^r Pierce proposed 3 years. 7 years would raise an alarm. Great mischiefs had arisen in England from their septennial Act which was reprobated by most of their patriotic Statesmen.

M^r Randolph was for the term of 7 years. The democratic licentiousness of the State Legislatures proved the necessity of a firm Senate. The object of this 2^d branch is to controul the democratic branch of the Nat^l Legislature. If it be not a firm body, the other branch being more numerous, and coming immediately from the people, will overwhelm it. The Senate of Maryland constituted on like principles had been scarcely able to stem the popular torrent. No mischief can be apprehended, as the concurrence of the other branch, and in some measure, of the Executive, will in all cases be necessary. A firmness & independence may be the more necessary also in this branch, as it ought to guard the Constitution ag^{st} encroachments of the Executive who will be apt to form combinations with the demagogues of the popular branch.

M^r Madison, considered 7 years as a term by no means too long. What we wished was to give to the Gov^t that stability which was every where called for, and which the Enemies of the Republican form alledged to be inconsistent with its nature. He was not afraid of giving too much stability by the term of Seven years. His fear was that the popular branch would still be too great an overmatch for it. It was to be much lamented that we had so little direct experience to guide us. The Constitution of Maryland was the only one that bore any analogy to this part of the plan. In no instance had the Senate of Mary^d created just suspicions of danger from it. In some instances perhaps it may have erred by yielding to the H. of Delegates. In every instance of their opposition to the measures of the H. of D. they had had with them the suffrages of the most enlightened and impartial people of the other States as well as of their own. In the States where the Senates, were chosen in the same manner as the other branches, of the Legislature, and held their seats for 4 years, the institution was found to be no check whatever ag^{st} the instabilities of the other branches. He conceived it to be of great importance that a stable & firm Gov^t, organized in the republican form should be held out to the people. If this be not done, and the people be left to judge of this species of Gov^t by y^e operations of the defective systems under which they now live, it is much to be feared the time is not distant when, in universal disgust, they will renounce the blessing which they have purchased at so dear a rate, and be ready for any change that may be proposed to them.

On the question for "seven years" as the term for the 2^d branch

Mass^{ts} divided. (M^r King, M^r Ghorum ay, M^r Gerry, M^r Strong, no) Con^t no. N. Y. div^d N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Butler and M^r Rutlidge proposed that the members of the 2^d branch should be entitled to no salary or compensation for their services. On the question,[81]--

Mass^{ts} div^d. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P. no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

[81] (It is probable y^e votes here turned chiefly on the idea that if the salaries were not here provided for, the members would be paid by their respective States) This note for the bottom margin.--Madison's Note.

It was then moved & agreed that the clauses respecting the stipends & ineligibility of the 2^d branch be the same as, of the 1^{st} branch:--Con: disagreeing to the ineligibility.

It was moved & 2^{ded} to alter the Resol: 9. so as to read "that the jurisdiction of the supreme tribunal shall be to hear & determine in the dernier resort, all piracies, felonies, &c."

It was moved & 2^{ded} to strike out "all piracies & felonies on the high seas," which was agreed to.

It was moved & agreed to strike out "all captures from an enemy."

It was moved & agreed to strike out "other States" and insert "two distinct States of the Union."

It was moved & agreed to postpone the consideration of the Resolution 9, relating to the Judiciary:

The Com^e then rose & the House Adjourned.

WEDNESDAY JUNE 13.[82] IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

[82] Edward Carrington wrote to Madison from New York, June 13, 1787:

"The public mind is now on the point of a favourable turn to the objects of your meeting, and, being fairly met with the result, will, I am persuaded, eventually embrace it--being calculated for the permanent fitness, and not the momentary habits of the country, it may at first be viewed with hesitation, but derived and patronized as it will be, its influence must extend into an adoption as the present fabric gives way--the work once well done will be done forever, but patched up in accommodation to the whim of the day, it will soon require the hand of the cobbler again, and in every unfortunate experiment the materials are rendered the less fit for that monument of civil liberty which we wish to erect.--Constitute a federal Government, invigorate & check it well--give it then independent powers over the Trade the Revenues, and force of the Union, and all things that involve any relationship to foreign powers--give it also the revisal of all State acts--unless it possesses a compleat controul over the State Governments, the constant effort will be to resume the delegated powers,--nor do I see what inducement the federal sovereignty can have to negative an innocent act of a State--Constitute it in such shape that, its first principles being preserved, it will be a good republic--I wish to see that system have a fair experiment--but let the liability to encroachment be rather from the federal, than the State, governments--in the first case we shall insensibly glide into a monarchy: in the latter nothing but anarchy can be the consequence.

"Some Gentlemen think of a total surrender of the State Sovereignty--I see not the necessity of that measure for giving us national stability in consequence--the negative of the federal sovereignty will effectually prevent the existence of any licentious or inconsiderate act--and I believe that even under a new monarchy it would be found necessary thus to continue the local administration--general Laws would operate many particular [undecipherable] and a general legislature would be found incompetent to the formation of local ones--the interest of the United States may be well combined for the common good--but the affairs of so extensive a country are not to be thrown into one mass--an attempt to confederate upon terms materially opposed to the particular Interests would in all probability occasion a dismemberment, and in that event, within a long time yet to come, the prospects of commerce will be at an end as to any degree of national importance, let her fate be what it may as to freedom or vassalage."--Mad. MSS.

Resol: 9 being resumed

The latter parts of the clause relating to the jurisdiction of the Nat^l tribunals, was struck out nem. con in order to leave full room for their organization.

M^r Randolph & M^r Madison, then moved the following resolution respecting a National Judiciary,viz "that the jurisdiction of the National Judiciary shall extend to cases, which respect the collection of the national revenue, impeachments of any national officers, and questions which involve the national peace and harmony" which was agreed to.

M^r Pinkney & M^r Sherman moved to insert after the words "one supreme tribunal" the words "the Judges of which to be appointed by the National Legislature."

M^r Madison, objected to an app^t by the whole Legislature. Many of them were incompetent Judges of the requisite qualifications. They were too much influenced by their partialities. The candidate who was present, who had displayed a talent for business in the legislative field, who had perhaps assisted ignorant members in business of their own, or of their Constituents, or used other winning means, would without any of the essential qualifications for an expositor of the laws prevail over a competitor not having these recommendations, but possessed of every necessary accomplishment. He proposed that the appointment should be made by the Senate, which as a less numerous & more select body, would be more competent judges, and which was sufficiently numerous to justify such a confidence in them.

M^r Sherman & M^r Pinkney withdrew their motion, and the app^t by the Senate was ag^d to nem. con.

M^r Gerry moved to restrain the Senatorial branch from originating money bills. The other branch was more immediately the representatives of the people, and it was a maxim that the people ought to hold the Purse-strings. If the Senate should be allowed to originate such bills, they w^d repeat the experiment, till chance should furnish a sett of representatives in the other branch who will fall into their snares.

M^r Butler saw no reason for such a discrimination. We were always following the British Constitution when the reason of it did not apply. There was no analogy between the H. of Lords and the body proposed to be established. If the Senate should be degraded by any such discriminations, the best men would be apt to decline serving in it in favor of the other branch. And it will lead the latter into the practice of tacking other clauses to money bills.

M^r Madison observed that the Comentators on the Brit: Const: had not yet agreed on the reason of the restriction on the H. of L. in money bills. Certain it was there could be no similar reason in the case before us. The Senate would be the representatives of the people as well as the 1^{st} branch. If they s^d have any dangerous influence over it, they would easily prevail on some member of the latter to originate the bill they wished to be passed. As the Senate would be generally a more capable sett of men, it w^d be wrong to disable them from any preparation of the business, especially of that which was most important, and in our republics, worse prepared than any other. The Gentleman in pursuance of his principle ought to carry the restraint to the amendment, as well as the originating of money bills, since, an addition of a given sum w^d be equivalent to a distinct proposition of it.

M^r King differed from M^r Gerry, and concurred in the objections to the proposition.

M^r Read favored the proposition, but would not extend the restraint to the case of amendments.

M^r Pinkney thinks the question premature. If the Senate sh^d be formed on the same proportional representation as it stands at present, they s^d have equal power, otherwise if a different principle s^d be introduced.

M^r Sherman. As both branches must concur, there can be no danger whichever way the Senate be formed. We establish two branches in order to get more wisdom, which is particularly needed in the finance business--The Senate bear their share of the taxes, and are also the representatives of the people. What a man does by another, he does by himself is a maxim. In Con^t both branches can originate in all cases, and it has been found safe & convenient. Whatever might have been the reason of the rule as to The H. of Lords, it is clear that no good arises from it now even there.

Gen^l Pinkney. This distinction prevails in S. C. and has been a source of pernicious disputes between y^e 2 branches. The Constitution is now evaded, by informal schedules of amendments handed from y^e Senate to the other House.

M^r Williamson wishes for a question chiefly to prevent re-discussion. The restriction will have one advantage, it will oblige some member in the lower branch to move, & people can then mark him.

On the question for excepting money bills, as prop^d by M^r Gerry, Mass. no. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.[83]

[83] According to the Journal (121) Pennsylvania was among the noes.

Committee rose & M^r Ghorum made report, which was postponed till tomorrow, to give an opportunity for other plans to be proposed. The report was in the words following:

Report of the Committee of Whole on M^r Randolph's propositions.

1. Res^d that it is the opinion of this Committee that a National Governm^t ought to be established, consisting of a supreme Legislative, Executive & Judiciary.

2. Resol^d that the National Legislature ought to consist of two branches.

3. Res^d that the members of the first branch of the National Legislature ought to be elected by the people of the several States for the term of three years, to receive fixed Stipends by which they may be compensated for the devotion of their time to public service, to be paid out of the National Treasury: to be ineligible to any office established by a particular State, or under the authority of the U. States, (except those peculiarly belonging to the functions of the first branch), during the term of service, and under the national Government for the Space of one year after its expiration.

4. Res^d that the members of the second branch of the Nat^l Legislature ought to be chosen by the individual Legislatures, to be of the age of 30 years at least, to hold their offices for a term sufficient to ensure their independency, namely, seven years, to receive fixed stipends by which they may be compensated for the devotion of their time to public service to be paid out of the National Treasury; to be ineligible to any office established by a particular State, or under the authority of the U. States, (except those peculiarly belonging to the functions of the second branch) during the term of service, and under the Nat^l Gov^t for the space of one year after its expiration.

5. Res^d that each branch ought to possess the right of originating Acts.

6. Res^d that the Nat^l Legislature ought to be empowered to enjoy the Legislative rights vested in Cong^s by the Confederation, and moreover to legislate in all cases to which the separate States are incompetent; or in which the harmony of the U. S. may be interrupted by the exercise of individual legislation; to negative all laws passed by the several States contravening in the opinion of the National Legislature the articles of Union, or any treaties subsisting under the authority of the Union.

7. Res^d that the rights of suffrage in the 1^{st} branch of the National Legislature, ought not to be according to the rule established in the articles of confederation but according to some equitable ratio of representation, namely, in proportion to the whole number of white & other free citizens & inhabitants, of every age sex and condition, including those bound to servitude for a term of years, & three fifths of all other persons, not comprehended in the foregoing description, except Indians not paying taxes in each State.

8. Resolved that the right of suffrage in the 2^d branch of the National Legislature ought to be according to the rule established for the first.

9. Resolved that a National Executive be instituted to consist of a single person, to be chosen by the Nat^l Legislature for the term of seven years, with power to carry into execution the national laws, to appoint to offices in cases not otherwise provided for--to be ineligible a second time, & to be removeable on impeachment and conviction of malpractices or neglect of duty--to receive a fixed stipend by which he may be compensated for the devotion of his time to public service to be paid out of the national Treasury.

10. Resol^d that the Nat^l Executive shall have a right to negative any Legislative Act, which shall not be afterwards passed unless by two thirds of each branch of the National Legislature.

11. Resol^d that a Nat^l Judiciary be established, to consist of one supreme tribunal, the Judges of which to be appointed by the 2^d branch of the Nat^l Legislature, to hold their offices during good behaviour, & to receive punctually at stated times a fixed compensation for their services, in which no increase or diminution shall be made, so as to affect the persons actually in office at the time of such increase or diminution.

12. Resol^d that the Nat^l Legislature be empowered to appoint inferior Tribunals.

13. Res^d that the jurisdiction of the Nat^l Judiciary shall extend to all cases which respect the collection of the Nat^l revenue, impeachments of any Nat^l Officers, and questions which involve the national peace & harmony.

14. Res^d that provision ought to be made for the admission of States lawfully arising within the limits of the U. States, whether from a voluntary junction of Government & territory or otherwise, with the consent of a number of voices in the Nat^l Legislature less than the whole.

15. Res^d that provision ought to be made for the continuance of Congress and their authorities and privileges untill a given day after the reform of the articles of Union shall be adopted and for the completion of all their engagements.

16. Res^d that a Republican Constitution & its existing laws ought to be guaranteed to each State by the U. States.

17. Res^d that provision ought to be made for the amendment of the Articles of Union whensoever it shall seem necessary.

18. Res^d that the Legislative, Executive & Judiciary powers within the several States ought to be bound by oath to support the articles of Union.

19. Res^d that the amendments which shall be offered to the confederation by the Convention ought at a proper time or times after the approbation of Cong^s to be submitted to an Assembly or Assemblies recommended by the several Legislatures to be expressly chosen by the people to consider and decide thereon.

THURSDAY JUNE 14. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Patterson, observed to the Convention that it was the wish of several deputations, particularly that of N. Jersey, that further time might be allowed them to contemplate the plan reported from the Committee of the Whole, and to digest one purely federal, and contradistinguished from the reported plan. He said they hoped to have such an one ready by tomorrow to be laid before the Convention: And the Convention adjourned that leisure might be given for the purpose.

FRIDAY JUNE 15^{TH} 1787

M^r Patterson, laid before the Convention the plan which he said several of the deputations wished to be substituted in place of that proposed by M^r Randolph. After some little discussion of the most proper mode of giving it a fair deliberation it was agreed that it should be referred to a Committee of the Whole, and that in order to place the two plans in due comparison, the other should be recommitted. At the earnest request of M^r Lansing[84] & some other gentlemen, it was also agreed that the Convention should not go into Co[~m]ittee of the whole on the subject till tomorrow, by which delay the friends of the plan proposed by M^r Patterson w^d be better prepared to explain & support it, and all would have an opportu^y of taking copies.[85]

[84] "Mr. Lansing is a practising Attorney at Albany, and Mayor of that Corporation. He has a hisitation in his speech, that will prevent his being an Orator of any eminence;--his legal knowledge I am told is not extensive, nor his education a good one. He is however a Man of good sense, plain in his manners, and sincere in his friendships. He is about 32 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 327.

[85] (This plan had been concerted among the deputations or members thereof, from Con^t N. Y. N. J. Del. and perhaps M^r Martin from Mary^d who made with them a common cause though on different principles. Con^t & N. Y. were ag^{st} a departure from the principle of the Confederation, wishing rather to add a few new powers to Cong^s than to substitute, a National Gov^t. The States of N. J. & Del. were opposed to a National Gov^t because its patrons considered a proportional representation of the States as the basis of it. The eagerness displayed by the members opposed to a Nat^l Gov^t from these different motives began now to produce serious anxiety for the result of the Convention. M^r Dickenson said to M^r Madison You see the consequence of pushing things too far. Some of the members from the small States wish for two branches in the General Legislature, and are friends to a good National Government; but we would sooner submit to foreign power, than submit to be deprived of an equality of suffrage in both branches of the legislature, and thereby be thrown under the domination of the large States.)--Madison Note.

"Mr. Madison moved for the report of the committee, and the question may then come on whether the convention will postpone it in order to take into consideration the system now offered.

"Mr. Lansing is of opinion that the two systems are fairly contrasted. The one now offered is on the basis of amending the federal government, and the other to be reported as a national government, on propositions which exclude the propriety of amendment. Considering therefore its importance, and that justice may be done to its weighty consideration, he is for postponing it a day.

"Col. Hamilton cannot say he is in sentiment with either plan--supposes both might again be considered as federal plans, and by this means they will be fairly in committee, and be contrasted so as to make a comparative estimate of the two."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 121, 122.

The propositions from N. Jersey moved by M^r Patterson were in the words following.

1. Res^d that the articles of Confederation ought to be so revised, corrected, & enlarged, as to render the federal Constitution adequate to the exigencies of Government, & the preservation of the Union.

2. Res^d that in addition to the powers vested in the U. States in Congress, by the present existing articles of Confederation, they be authorized to pass acts for raising a revenue, by levying a duty or duties on all goods or merchandizes of foreign growth or manufacture, imported into any part of the U. States, by Stamps on paper, vellum or parchment, and by a postage on all letters or packages passing through the general post-office, to be applied to such federal purposes as they shall deem proper & expedient; to make rules & regulations for the collection thereof; and the same from time to time, to alter & amend in such manner as they shall think proper, to pass Acts for the regulation of trade & commerce as well with foreign Nations as with each other: provided that all punishments, fines, forfeitures & penalties to be incurred for contravening such acts rules and regulations shall be adjudged by the Common law Judiciaries of the State in which any Offence contrary to the true intent & meaning of such Acts rules & regulations shall have been committed or perpetrated, with liberty of commencing in the first instance all suits & prosecutions for that purpose in the Superior Common law Judiciary in such State, subject nevertheless, for the correction of all errors, both in law & fact in rendering Judgment, to an appeal to the Judiciary of the U. States.

3. Res^d that whenever requisitions shall be necessary, instead of the rule for making requisitions mentioned in the articles of Confederation, the United States in Cong^s be authorized to make such requisitions in proportion to the whole number of white & other free citizens & inhabitants of every age Sex and condition including those bound to servitude for a term of years & three fifths of all other persons not comprehended in the foregoing description, except Indians not paying taxes; that if such requisitions be not complied with, in the time specified therein, to direct the collection thereof in the non complying States & for that purpose to devise and pass acts directing & authorizing the same; provided that none of the powers hereby vested in the U. States in Cong^s shall be exercised without the consent of at least ---- States, and in that proportion if the number of Confederated States should hereafter be increased or diminished.

4. Res^d that the U. States in Cong^s be authorized to elect a federal Executive to consist of ---- persons, to continue in office for the term of ---- years, to receive punctually at stated times a fixed compensation for their services, in which no increase nor diminution shall be made so as to affect the persons composing the Executive at the time of such increase or diminution, to be paid out of the federal treasury; to be incapable of holding any other office or appointment during their time of service and for ---- years thereafter: to be ineligible a second time, & removeable by Cong^s on application by a majority of the Executives of the several States; that the Executives besides their general authority to execute the federal acts ought to appoint all federal officers not otherwise provided for, & to direct all military operations; provided that none of the persons composing the federal Executive shall on any occasion take command of any troops, so as personally to conduct any enterprise as General or in any other capacity.

5. Res^d that a federal Judiciary be established to consist of a supreme Tribunal the Judges of which to be appointed by the Executive, & to hold their offices during good behaviour, to receive punctually at stated times a fixed compensation for their services in which no increase nor diminution shall be made, so as to affect the persons actually in office at the time of such increase or diminution: that the Judiciary so established shall have authority to hear & determine in the first instance on all impeachments of federal Officers, & by way of appeal in the dernier resort in all cases touching the rights of Ambassadors, in all cases of captures from an enemy, in all cases of piracies & felonies on the high Seas, in all cases in which foreigners may be interested, in the construction of any treaty or treaties, or which may arise on any of the Acts for the regulation of trade, or the collection of the federal Revenue: that none of the Judiciary shall during the time they remain in office be capable of receiving or holding any other office or appointment during their term of service, or for ---- thereafter.

6. Res^d that all Acts of the U. States in Cong^s made by virtue & in pursuance of the powers hereby & by the Articles of Confederation vested in them, and all Treaties made & ratified under the authority of the U. States shall be the supreme law of the respective States so far forth as those Acts or Treaties shall relate to the said States or their Citizens, and that the Judiciary of the several States shall be bound thereby in their decisions any thing in the respective laws of the Individual States to the Contrary notwithstanding: and that if any State, or any body of men in any State shall oppose or prevent y^e carrying into execution such acts or treaties, the federal Executive shall be authorized to call forth y^e power of the Confederated States, or so much thereof as may be necessary to enforce and compel an Obedience to such Acts, or an observance of such Treaties.

7. Res^d that provision be made for the admission of new States into the Union.

8. Res^d that the rule for naturalization ought to be same in every State.

9. Res^d that a Citizen of one State committing an offence in another State of the Union, shall be deemed guilty of the same offence as if it had been committed by a Citizen of the State in which the offence was committed.[86]

[86] This copy of M^r Patterson's propositions varies in a few clauses from that in the printed Journal furnished from the papers of M^r Brearley a colleague of M^r Patterson. A confidence is felt, notwithstanding, in its accuracy. That the copy in the Journal is not entirely correct is shewn by the ensuing speech of M^r Wilson (June 16) in which he refers to the mode of removing the Executive by impeachment & conviction as a feature in the Virg^a plan forming one of its contrasts to that of M^r Patterson, which proposed a removal on the application of a majority of the Executives of the States. In the copy printed in the Journal, the two modes are combined in the same clause; whether through inadvertence, or as a contemplated amendment, does not appear.--Madison's Note.

The Journal contains: "6. Resolved, that the legislative, executive, and judiciary powers within the several states, ought to be bound, by oath, to support the articles of union," and "9. Resolved, that provision ought to be made for hearing and deciding upon all disputes arising between the United States and an individual state, respecting territory."--Journal of the Federal Convention, 126.

Adjourned.

SATURDAY JUNE 16. IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE on Resolutions propos^d by M^r P. & M^r R.

M^r Lansing called for the reading of the 1^{st} resolution of each plan, which he considered as involving principles directly in contrast; that of M^r Patterson says he sustains the sovereignty of the respective States, that of M^r Randolph destroys it: the latter requires a negative on all the laws of the particular States; the former, only certain general powers for the general good. The plan of M^r R. in short absorbs all power except what may be exercised in the little local matters of the States which are not objects worthy of the supreme cognizance. He grounded his preference of M^r P's plan, chiefly on two objections ag^{st} that of M^r R. 1. want of power in the Convention to discuss & propose it. 2. the improbability of its being adopted, 1. He was decidedly of opinion that the power of the Convention was restrained to amendments of a federal nature, and having for their basis the Confederacy in being. The Act of Congress The tenor of the Acts of the States, the Co[~m]issions produced by the several deputations all proved this. And this limitation of the power to an amendment of the Confederacy, marked the opinion of the States, that it was unnecessary & improper to go farther. He was sure that this was the case with his State. N. York would never have concurred in sending deputies to the Convention, if she had supposed the deliberations were to turn on a consolidation of the States, and a National Government.

2. was it probable that the States would adopt & ratify a scheme, which they had never authorized us to propose? and which so far exceeded what they regarded as sufficient? We see by their several Acts particularly in relation to the plan of revenue proposed by Cong. in 1783, not authorized by the Articles of Confederation, what were the ideas they then entertained. Can so great a change be supposed to have already taken place. To rely on any change which is hereafter to take place in the sentiments of the people would be trusting to too great an uncertainty. We know only what their present sentiments are. And it is in vain to propose what will not accord with these. The States will never feel a sufficient confidence in a general Government to give it a negative on their laws. The Scheme is itself totally novel. There is no parallel to it to be found. The Authority of Congress is familiar to the people, and an augmentation of the powers of Congress will be readily approved by them.

M^r Patterson, said as he had on a former occasion given his sentiments on the plan proposed by M^r R. he would now avoiding repetition as much as possible give his reasons in favor of that proposed by himself. He preferred it because it accorded 1. with the powers of the Convention, 2 with the sentiments of the people. If the confederacy was radically wrong, let us return to our States, and obtain larger powers, not assume them ourselves. I came here not to speak my own sentiments, but the sentiments of those who sent me. Our object is not such a Governm^t as may be best in itself, but such a one as our Constituents have authorized us to prepare, and as they will approve. If we argue the matter on the supposition that no Confederacy at present exists, it can not be denied that all the States stand on the footing of equal sovereignty. All therefore must concur before any can be bound. If a proportional representation be right, why do we not vote so here? If we argue on the fact that a federal compact actually exists, and consult the articles of it we still find an equal Sovereignty to be the basis of it. He reads the 5^{th} art: of Confederation giving each State a vote--& the 13^{th} declaring that no alteration shall be made without unanimous consent. This is the nature of all treaties. What is unanimously done, must be unanimously undone. It was observed (by M^r Wilson) that the larger State gave up the point, not because it was right, but because the circumstances of the moment urged the concession. Be it so. Are they for that reason at liberty to take it back. Can the donor resume his gift without the consent of the donee. This doctrine may be convenient, but it is a doctrine that will sacrifice the lesser States. The larger States acceded readily to the confederacy. It was the small ones that came in reluctantly and slowly. N. Jersey & Maryland were the two last, the former objecting to the want of power in Congress over trade: both of them to the want of power to appropriate the vacant territory to the benefit of the whole.--If the sovereignty of the States is to be maintained, the Representatives must be drawn immediately from the States, not from the people: and we have no power to vary the idea of equal sovereignty. The only expedient that will cure the difficulty, is that of throwing the States into Hotchpot. To say that this is impracticable, will not make it so. Let it be tried, and we shall see whether the Citizens of Mass^{ts} Pen^a & V^a accede to it. It will be objected that Coercion will be impracticable. But will it be more so in one plan than the other? Its efficacy will depend on the quantum of power collected, not on its being drawn from the States, or from the individuals; and according to his plan it may be exerted on individuals as well as according that of M^r R. A distinct executive & Judiciary also were equally provided by his plan. It is urged that two branches in the Legislature are necessary. Why? for the purpose of a check. But the reason of the precaution is not applicable to this case. Within a particular State, where party heats prevail, such a check may be necessary. In such a body as Congress it is less necessary, and besides, the delegations of the different States are checks on each other. Do the people at large complain of Cong^s? No, what they wish is that Cong^s may have more power. If the power now proposed be not eno', the people hereafter will make additions to it. With proper powers Cong^s will act with more energy & wisdom than the proposed Nat^l Legislature; being fewer in number, and more secreted & refined by the mode of election. The plan of M^r R. will also be enormously expensive. Allowing Georgia & Del. two representatives each in the popular branch the aggregate number of that branch will be 180. Add to it half as many for the other branch and you have 270, coming once at least a year from the most distant as well as the most central parts of the republic. In the present deranged State of our finances can so expensive a System be seriously thought of? By enlarging the powers of Cong^s the greatest part of this expence will be saved, and all purposes will be answered. At least a trial ought to be made.

M^r Wilson entered into a contrast of the principal points of the two plans so far he said as there had been time to examine the one last proposed. These points were 1. in the Virg^a plan there are 2 & in some degree 3 branches in the Legislature: in the plan from N. J. there is to be a single legislature only--2. Representation of the people at large is the basis of one: the State Legislatures, the pillars of the other--3. proportional representation prevails in one;--equality of suffrage in the other--4. A single Executive Magistrate is at the head of the one:--a plurality is held out in the other.--5. in the one the majority of the people of the U. S. must prevail:--in the other a minority may prevail. 6. the Nat^l Legislature is to make laws in all cases to which the separate States are incompetent &:--in place of this Cong^s are to have additional power in a few cases only--7. A negative on the laws of the States:--in place of this coertion to be substituted--8. The Executive to be removable on impeachment & conviction;--in one plan: in the other to be removable at the instance of a majority of the Executives of the States--9. Revision of the laws provided for in one:--no such check in the other--10. inferior national tribunals in one:--none such in the other. 11. In one y^e jurisdiction of Nat^l tribunals to extend &c.--; an appellate jurisdiction only allowed in the other. 12. Here the jurisdiction is to extend to all cases affecting the Nation^l peace & harmony; there a few cases only are marked out. 13. finally y^e ratification is in this to be by the people themselves:--in that by the legislative authorities according to the 13 art: of the Confederation.

With regard to the power of the Convention, he conceived himself authorized to conclude nothing, but to be at liberty to propose any thing. In this particular he felt himself perfectly indifferent to the two plans.

With regard to the sentiments of the people, he conceived it difficult to know precisely what they are. Those of the particular circle in which one moved, were commonly mistaken for the general voice. He could not persuade himself that the State Gov^{ts} & Sovereignties were so much the idols of the people, nor a Nat^l Gov^t so obnoxious to them, as some supposed. Why s^d a Nat^l Gov^t be unpopular? Has it less dignity? will each Citizen enjoy under it less liberty or protection? Will a Citizen of Deleware be degraded by becoming a Citizen of the United States? Where do the people look at present for relief from the evils of which they complain? Is it from an internal reform of their Gov^{ts}? no, Sir. It is from the Nat^l Councils that relief is expected. For these reasons he did not fear, that the people would not follow us into a National Gov^t and it will be a further recommendation of M^r R'^s plan that it is to be submitted to them, and not to the Legislatures, for ratification.

Proceeding now to the 1^{st} point on which he had contrasted the two plans, he observed that anxious as he was for some augmentation of the federal powers, it would be with extreme reluctance indeed that he could ever consent to give powers to Cong^s he had two reasons either of w^{ch} was sufficient, 1. Cong^s as a Legislative body does not stand on the people. 2. it is a single body. 1. He would not repeat the remarks he had formerly made on the principles of Representation, he would only say that an inequality in it, has ever been a poison contaminating every branch of Gov^t. In G. Britain where this poison has had a full operation, the security of private rights is owing entirely to the purity of her tribunals of Justice, the Judges of which are neither appointed nor paid, by a venal Parliament. The political liberty of that Nation, owing to the inequality of representation is at the mercy of its rulers. He means not to insinuate that there is any parallel between the situation of that Country & ours at present. But it is a lesson we ought not to disregard, that the smallest bodies in G. B. are notoriously the most corrupt. Every other source of influence must also be stronger in small than large bodies of men. When Lord Chesterfield had told us that one of the Dutch provinces had been seduced into the views of France, he need not have added, that it was not Holland, but one of the smallest of them. There are facts among ourselves which are known to all. Passing over others, he will only remark that the Impost, so anxiously wished for by the public was defeated not by any of the larger States in the Union. 2. Congress is a single Legislature. Despotism comes on Mankind in different Shapes, sometimes in an Executive, sometimes in a Military, one. Is there no danger of a Legislative despotism? Theory & practice both proclaim it. If the Legislative authority be not restrained, there can be neither liberty nor stability; and it can only be restrained by dividing it within itself, into distinct and independent branches. In a single House there is no check, but the inadequate one, of the virtue & good sense of those who compose it.

On another great point, the contrast was equally favorable to the plan reported by the Committee of the whole. It vested the Executive powers in a single Magistrate. The plan of N. Jersey, vested them in a plurality. In order to controul the Legislative authority, you must divide it. In order to controul the Executive you must unite it. One man will be more responsible than three. Three will contend among themselves till one becomes the master of his colleagues. In the triumvirates of Rome first Cæsar, then Augustus, are witnesses of this truth. The Kings of Sparta, & the Consuls of Rome prove also the factious consequences of dividing the Executive Magistracy. Having already taken up so much time he w^d not he s^d, proceed to any of the other points. Those on which he had dwelt, are sufficient of themselves; and on the decision of them, the fate of the others will depend.

M^r Pinkney,[87] the whole comes to this, as he conceived. Give N. Jersey an equal vote, and she will dismiss her scruples, and concur in the Nat^l system. He thought the Convention authorized to go any length in recommending; which they found necessary to remedy the evils which produced this Convention.

[87] Yates states it was C. C. Pinckney who said this.--Secret Proceedings, etc., 123.

M^r Elseworth proposed as a more distinctive form of collecting the mind of the Committee on the subject, "that the Legislative power of the U.S. should remain in Cong^s" This was not seconded, though it seemed better calculated for the purpose than the 1^{st} proposition of M^r Patterson in place of which Mr. E. wished to substitute it.

M^r Randolph, was not scrupulous on the point of power. When the Salvation of the Republic was at stake, it would be treason to our trust, not to propose what we found necessary. He painted in strong colours, the imbecility of the existing Confederacy, & the danger of delaying a substantial reform. In answer to the objection drawn from the sense of our Constituents as denoted by their acts relating to the Convention and the objects of their deliberation, he observed that as each State acted separately in the case, it would have been indecent for it to have charged the existing Constitution with all the vices which it might have perceived in it. The first State that set on foot this experiment would not have been justified in going so far, ignorant as it was of the opinion of others, and sensible as it must have been of the uncertainty of a successful issue to the experiment. There are certainly reasons of a peculiar nature where the ordinary cautions must be dispensed with; and this is certainly one of them. He w^d not as far as depended on him leave any thing that seemed necessary, undone. The present moment is favorable, and is probably the last that will offer.

The true question is whether we shall adhere to the federal plan, or introduce the national plan. The insufficiency of the former has been fully displayed by the trial already made. There are but two modes, by which the end of a Gen^l Gov^t can be attained: the 1^{st} is by coercion as proposed by M^r P's plan 2. by real legislation as prop^d by the other plan. Coercion he pronounced to be impracticable, expensive, cruel to individuals. It tended also to habituate the instruments of it to shed the blood & riot in the Spoils of their fellow Citizens, and consequently trained them up for the service of Ambition. We must resort therefore to a National Legislation over individuals, for which Cong^s are unfit. To vest such power in them, would be blending the Legislative with the Executive, contrary to the rec^d maxim on this subject: If the Union of these powers heretofore in Cong^s has been safe, it has been owing to the general impotency of that body. Cong^s are moreover not elected by the people, but by the Legislatures who retain even a power of recall. They have therefore no will of their own, they are a mere diplomatic body, and are always obsequious to the views of the States, who are always encroaching on the authority of the U. States. A provision for harmony among the States, as in trade, naturalization &.--for crushing rebellion whenever it may rear its crest--and for certain other general benefits, must be made. The powers for these purposes can never be given to a body, inadequate as Congress are in point of representation, elected in the mode in which they are, and possessing no more confidence than they do: for notwithstanding what has been said to the contrary, his own experience satisfied him that a rooted distrust of Congress pretty generally prevailed. A Nat^l Gov^t alone, properly constituted, will answer the purpose; and he begged it to be considered that the present is the last moment for establing one. After this select experiment, the people will yield to despair.

The Committee rose & the House adjourned.

MONDAY JUNE 18. IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE on the propositions of M^r Patterson & M^r Randolph.

On motion of M^r Dickinson to postpone the 1^{st} Resolution in M^r Patterson's plan, in order to take up the following viz--"that the Articles of Confederation ought to be revised and amended, so as to render the Government of the U. S. adequate to the exigencies, the preservation and the prosperity of the Union" the postponement was agreed to by 10 States, Pen: divided.

Mr. Hamilton,[88] had been hitherto silent on the business before the Convention, partly from respect to others whose superior abilities age & experience rendered him unwilling to bring forward ideas dissimilar to theirs, and partly from his delicate situation with respect to his own State, to whose sentiments as expressed by his Colleages, he could by no means accede. This crisis however which now marked our affairs, was too serious to permit any scruples whatever to prevail over the duty imposed on every man to contribute his efforts for the public safety & happiness. He was obliged therefore to declare himself unfriendly to both plans. He was particularly opposed to that from N. Jersey, being fully convinced, that no amendment of the Confederation, leaving the States in possession of their Sovereignty could possibly answer the purpose. On the other hand he confessed he was much discouraged by the amazing extent of Country in expecting the desired blessings from any general sovereignty that could be substituted.--As to the powers of the Convention, he thought the doubts started on that subject had arisen from distinctions & reasonings too subtle. A federal Gov^t he conceived to mean an association of independent Communities into one. Different Confederacies have different powers, and exercise them in different ways. In some instances the powers are exercised over collective bodies; in others over individuals, as in the German Diet--& among ourselves in cases of piracy. Great latitude therefore must be given to the signification of the term. The plan last proposed departs itself from the federal idea, as understood by some, since it is to operate eventually on individuals. He agreed moreover with the Honble gentleman from V^a (M^r R.) that we owed it to our Country, to do on this emergency whatever we should deem essential to its happiness. The States sent us here to provide for the exigencies of the Union. To rely on & propose any plan not adequate to these exigencies, merely because it was not clearly within our powers, would be to sacrifice the means to the end. It may be said that the States cannot ratify a plan not within the purview of the article of the Confederation providing for alterations & amendments. But may not the States themselves in which no constitutional authority equal to this purpose exists in the Legislatures, have had in view a reference to the people at large. In the Senate of N. York, a proviso was moved, that no act of the Convention should be binding untill it should be referred to the people & ratified; and the motion was lost by a single voice only, the reason assigned ag^{st} it being, that it might possibly be found an inconvenient shackle.

[88] Hamilton happened to call upon Madison while the latter was putting the last touches to this speech and "acknowledged its fidelity, without suggesting more than a few verbal alterations which were made."--(Cf. Madison's Writings, vol. ii.). A brief of the speech from the Hamilton Papers is given in Lodge's Works of Hamilton, i., 353, where (i., 375) Yates's report also is quoted.

[Illustration: HAMILTON'S PRINCIPAL SPEECH. (Reduced.)]

The great question is what provision shall we make for the happiness of our Country? He would first make a comparative examination of the two plans--prove that there were essential defects in both--and point out such changes as might render a national one, efficacious.--The great & essential principles necessary for the support of Government are 1. an active & constant interest in supporting it. This principle does not exist in the States in favor of the federal Gov^t. They have evidently in a high degree, the esprit de corps. They constantly pursue internal interests adverse to those of the whole. They have their particular debts--their particular plans of finance &c. All these when opposed to, invariably prevail over the requisitions & plans of Congress. 2. The love of power. Men love power. The same remarks are applicable to this principle. The States have constantly shewn a disposition rather to regain the powers delegated by them than to part with more, or to give effect to what they had parted with. The ambition of their demagogues is known to hate the controul of the Gen^l Government. It may be remarked too that the Citizens have not that anxiety to prevent a dissolution of the Gen^l Gov^t as of the particular Gov^{ts}. A dissolution of the latter would be fatal; of the former would still leave the purposes of Gov^t attainable to a considerable degree. Consider what such a State as Virg^a will be in a few years, a few compared with the life of nations. How strongly will it feel its importance and self-sufficiency? 3. An habitual attachment of the people. The whole force of this tie is on the side of the State Gov^t. Its sovereignty is immediately before the eyes of the people: its protection is immediately enjoyed by them. From its hand distributive justice, and all those acts which familiarize & endear a Gov^t to a people, are dispensed to them. 4. Force by which may be understood a coercion of laws or coercion of arms. Cong^s have not the former except in few cases. In particular States, this Coercion is nearly sufficient; tho' he held it in most cases, not entirely so. A certain portion of military force is absolutely necessary in large communities. Mass^{ts} is now feeling this necessity & making provision for it. But how can this force be exerted on the States collectively. It is impossible. It amounts to a war between the parties. Foreign powers also will not be idle spectators. They will interpose, the confusion will increase, and a dissolution of the Union will ensue. 5. Influence. he did not mean corruption, but a dispensation of those regular honors & emoluments, which produce an attachment to the Gov^t. Almost all the weight of these is on the side of the States; and must continue so as long as the States continue to exist. All the passions then we see, of avarice, ambition, interest, which govern most individuals, and all public bodies, fall into the current of the States, and do not flow into the stream of the Gen^l Gov^t. The former therefore will generally be an overmatch for the Gen^l Gov^t and render any confederacy, in its very nature precarious. Theory is in this case fully confirmed by experience. The Amphyctionic Council had it would seem ample powers for general purposes. It had in particular the power of fining and using force ag^{st} delinquent members. What was the consequence. Their decrees were mere signals of war. The Phocian war is a striking example of it. Philip at length taking advantage of their disunion, and insinuating himself into their councils, made himself master of their fortunes. The German Confederacy affords another lesson. The Authority of Charlemagne seemed to be as great as could be necessary. The great feudal chiefs however, exercising their local sovereignties, soon felt the spirit & found the means of, encroachments, which reduced the imperial authority to a nominal sovereignty. The Diet has succeeded, which tho' aided by a Prince at its head, of great authority independently of his imperial attributes, is a striking illustration of the weakness of Confederated Governments. Other examples instruct us in the same truth. The Swiss cantons have scarce any union at all, and have been more than once at war with one another.--How then are all these evils to be avoided? only by such a compleat sovereignty in the General Goverm^t as will turn all the strong principles & passions abovementioned on its side. Does the scheme of N. Jersey produce this effect? does it afford any substantial remedy whatever? On the contrary it labors under great defects, and the defect of some of its provisions will destroy the efficacy of others. It gives a direct revenue to Cong^s but this will not be sufficient. The balance can only be supplied by requisitions: which experience proves cannot be relied on. If States are to deliberate on the mode, they will also deliberate on the object of the supplies, and will grant or not grant as they approve or disapprove of it. The delinquency of one will invite and countenance it in others. Quotas too must in the nature of things be so unequal as to produce the same evil. To what standard will you resort? Land is a fallacious one. Compare Holland with Russia; France or Eng^d with other countries of Europe, Pen^a with N. Carol^a will the relative pecuniary abilities in those instances, correspond with the relative value of land. Take numbers of inhabitants for the rule and make like comparison of different countries, and you will find it to be equally unjust. The different degrees of industry and improvement in different Countries render the first object a precarious measure of wealth. Much depends too on situation. Con^t N. Jersey & N. Carolina, not being commercial States & contributing to the wealth of the Commercial ones, can never bear quotas assessed by the ordinary rules of proportion. They will & must fail in their duty, their example will be followed, and the union itself be dissolved. Whence then is the national revenue to be drawn? from Commerce; even from exports which notwithstanding the co[~m]on opinion are fit objects of moderate taxation, from excise, &c &c. These tho' not equal, are less unequal than quotas. Another destructive ingredient in the plan, is that equality of suffrage which is so much desired by the small States. It is not in human nature that V^a & the large States should consent to it, or if they did that they sh^d long abide by it. It shocks too much all ideas of Justice, and every human feeling. Bad principles in a Gov^t tho slow are sure in their operation, and will gradually destroy it. A doubt has been raised whether Cong^s at present have a right to keep Ships or troops in time of peace. He leans to the negative. Mr. P'^s plan provides no remedy.--If the powers proposed were adequate, the organization of Cong^s is such that they could never be properly & effectually exercised. The members of Cong^s being chosen by the States & subject to recall, represent all the local prejudices. Should the powers be found effectual, they will from time to time be heaped on them, till a tyrannic sway shall be established. The general power whatever be its form if it preserves itself, must swallow up the State powers. Otherwise it will be swallowed up by them. It is ag^{st} all the principles of a good Government to vest the requisite powers in such a body as Cong^s. Two Sovereignties can not co-exist within the same limits. Giving powers to Cong^s must eventuate in a bad Gov^t or in no Gov^t. The plan of N. Jersey therefore will not do. What then is to be done? Here he was embarrassed. The extent of the Country to be governed, discouraged him. The expence of a general Gov^t was also formidable; unless there were such a diminution of expence on the side of the State Gov^{ts} as the case would admit. If they were extinguished, he was persuaded that great oeconomy might be obtained by substituting a general Gov^t. He did not mean however to shock the public opinion by proposing such a measure. On the other hand he saw no other necessity for declining it. They are not necessary for any of the great purposes of commerce, revenue, or agriculture. Subordinate authorities he was aware would be necessary. There must be district tribunals; corporations for local purposes. But cui bono, the vast & expensive apparatus now appertaining to the States. The only difficulty of a serious nature which occurred to him, was that of drawing representatives from the extremes to the centre of the Community. What inducements can be offered that will suffice? The moderate wages for the 1^{st} branch would only be a bait to little demagogues. Three dollars or thereabouts he supposed would be the utmost. The Senate he feared from a similar cause, would be filled by certain undertakers who wish for particular offices under the Gov^t. This view of the subject almost led him to despair that a Republican Gov^t could be established over so great an extent. He was sensible at the same time that it would be unwise to propose one of any other form. In his private opinion he had no scruple in declaring, supported as he was by the opinion of so many of the wise & good, that the British Gov^t was the best in the world: and that he doubted much whether any thing short of it would do in America. He hoped Gentlemen of different opinions would bear with him in this, and begged them to recollect the change of opinion on this subject which had taken place and was still going on. It was once thought that the power of Cong^s was amply sufficient to secure the end of their institution. The error was now seen by every one. The members most tenacious of republicanism, he observed, were as loud as any in declaiming ag^{st} the vices of democracy. This progress of the public mind led him to anticipate the time, when others as well as himself would join in the praise bestowed by M^r Neckar on the British Constitution, namely, that it is the only Gov^t in the world "which unites public strength with individual security."--In every Co[~m]unity where industry is encouraged, there will be a division of it into the few & the many. Hence separate interests will arise. There will be debtors & Creditors &c. Give all power to the many, they will oppress the few. Give all power to the few, they will oppress the many. Both therefore ought to have the power, that each may defend itself ag^{st} the other. To the want of this check we owe our paper money, instalment laws &c. To the proper adjustment of it the British owe the excellence of their Constitution. Their house of Lords is a most noble institution. Having nothing to hope for by a change, and a sufficient interest by means of their property, in being faithful to the national interest, they form a permanent barrier ag^{st} every pernicious innovation, whether attempted on the part of the Crown or of the Commons. No temporary Senate will have firmness eno' to answer the purpose. The Senate (of Maryland) which seems to be so much appealed to, has not yet been sufficiently tried. Had the people been unanimous & eager in the late appeal to them on the subject of a paper emission they would have yielded to the torrent. Their acquiescing in such an appeal is a proof of it.--Gentlemen differ in their opinions concerning the necessary checks, from the different estimates they form of the human passions. They suppose seven years a sufficient period to give the senate an adequate firmness, from not duly considering the amazing violence & turbulence of the democratic spirit. When a great object of Gov^t is pursued, which seizes the popular passions, they spread like wild fire, and become irresistable. He appealed to the gentlemen from the N. England States whether experience had not there verified the remark.--As to the Executive, it seemed to be admitted that no good one could be established on Republican Principles. Was not this giving up the merits of the question; for can there be a good Gov^t without a good Executive. The English Model was the only good one on this subject. The Hereditary interest of the King was so interwoven with that of the Nation, and his personal emoluments so great, that he was placed above the danger of being corrupted from abroad--and at the same time was both sufficiently independent and sufficiently controuled, to answer the purpose of the institution at home, one of the weak sides of Republics was their being liable to foreign influence & corruption. Men of little character, acquiring great power become easily the tools of intermeddling Neibours. Sweden was a striking instance. The French & English had each their parties during the late Revolution which was effected by the predominant influence of the former.--What is the inference from all these observations? That we ought to go as far in order to attain stability and permanency, as republican principles will admit. Let one branch of the Legislature hold their places for life or at least during good behaviour. Let the Executive also be for life. He appealed to the feelings of the members present whether a term of seven years, would induce the sacrifices of private affairs which an acceptance of public trust would require, so as to ensure the services of the best Citizens. On this plan we should have in the Senate a permanent will, a weighty interest, which would answer essential purposes. But is this a Republican Gov^t, it will be asked? Yes if all the Magistrates are appointed, and vacancies are filled, by the people, or a process of election originating with the people. He was sensible that an Executive constituted as he proposed would have in fact but little of the power and independence that might be necessary. On the other plan of appointing him for 7 years, he thought the Executive ought to have but little power. He would be ambitious, with the means of making creatures, and as the object of his ambition w^d be to prolong his power, it is probable that in case of a war, he would avail himself of the emergence, to evade or refuse a degradation from his place. An Executive for life has not this motive for forgetting his fidelity, and will therefore be a safer depository of power. It will be objected probably, that such an Executive will be an elective Monarch, and will give birth to the tumults which characterize that form of Gov^t. He w^d reply that Monarch is an indefinite term. It marks not either the degree or duration of power. If this Executive Magistrate w^d be a monarch for life--the other prop^d by the Report from the Co[~m]ittee of the whole, w^d be a monarch for seven years. The circumstance of being elective was also applicable to both. It had been observed by judicious writers that elective monarchies w^d be the best if they could be guarded ag^{st} the tumults excited by the ambition and intrigues of competitors. He was not sure that tumults were an inseparable evil. He rather thought this character of Elective Monarchies had been taken rather from particular cases than from general principles. The election of Roman Emperors was made by the Army. In Poland the election is made by great rival princes with independent power, and ample means, of raising commotions. In the German Empire, The appointment is made by the Electors & Princes, who have equal motives & means, for exciting cabals & parties. Might not such a mode of election be devised among ourselves as will defend the community ag^{st} these effects in any dangerous degree? Having made these observations he would read to the Committee a sketch of a plan which he sh^d prefer to either of those under consideration. He was aware that it went beyond the ideas of most members. But will such a plan be adopted out of doors? In return he would ask will the people adopt the other plan? At present they will adopt neither. But he sees the Union dissolving or already dissolved--he sees evils operating in the States which must soon cure the people of their fondness for democracies--he sees that a great progress has been already made & is still going on in the public mind. He thinks therefore that the people will in time be unshackled from their prejudices; and whenever that happens, they will themselves not be satisfied at stopping where the plan of M^r R. w^d place them, but be ready to go as far at least as he proposes. He did not mean to offer the paper he had sketched as a proposition to the Committee. It was meant only to give a more correct view of his ideas, and to suggest the amendments which he should probably propose to the plan of M^r R. in the proper stages of its future discussion. He read his sketch in the words following; to wit

I. The supreme Legislative power of the United States of America to be vested in two different bodies of men; the one to be called the Assembly, the other the Senate who together shall form the Legislature of the United States with power to pass all laws whatsoever subject to the Negative hereafter mentioned.

II. The Assembly to consist of persons elected by the people to serve for three years.

III. The Senate to consist of persons elected to serve during good behaviour; their election to be made by electors chosen for that purpose by the people: in order to this the States to be divided into election districts. On the death, removal or resignation of any Senator his place to be filled out of the district from which he came.

IV. The supreme Executive authority of the United States to be vested in a Governour to be elected to serve during good behaviour--the election to be made by Electors chosen by the people in the Election Districts aforesaid--The authorities & functions of the Executive to be as follows: to have a negative on all laws about to be passed, and the execution of all laws passed; to have the direction of war when authorized or begun; to have with the advice and approbation of the Senate the power of making all treaties; to have the sole appointment of the heads or chief officers of the departments of Finance, War and Foreign Affairs; to have the nomination of all other officers (Ambassadors to foreign Nations included) subject to the approbation or rejection of the Senate; to have the power of pardoning all offences except Treason; which he shall not pardon without the approbation of the Senate.

V. On the death resignation or removal of the Governour his authorities to be exercised by the President of the Senate till a Successor be appointed.

VI. The Senate to have the sole power of declaring war, the power of advising and approving all Treaties, the power of approving or rejecting all appointments of officers except the heads or chiefs of the departments of Finance War and foreign affairs.

VII. The supreme Judicial authority to be vested in ---- Judges to hold their offices during good behaviour with adequate and permanent salaries. This Court to have original jurisdiction in all causes of capture, and an appellative jurisdiction in all causes in which the revenues of the General Government or the Citizens of foreign Nations are concerned.

VIII. The Legislature of the United States to have power to institute Courts in each State for the determination of all matters of general concern.

IX. The Governour Senators and all officers of the United States to be liable to impeachment for mal- and corrupt conduct; and upon conviction to be removed from office, & disqualified for holding any place of trust or profit--All impeachments to be tried by a Court to consist of the Chief ---- or Judge of the Superior Court of Law of each State, provided such Judge shall hold his place during good behavior, and have a permanent salary.

X. All laws of the particular States contrary to the Constitution or laws of the United States to be utterly void; and the better to prevent such laws being passed, the Governour or president of each State shall be appointed by the General Government and shall have a Negative upon the laws about to be passed in the State of which he is the Governour or President.

XI. No State to have any forces land or Naval; and the militia of all the States to be under the sole and exclusive direction of the United States, the officers of which to be appointed and commissioned by them.

On these several articles he entered into explanatory observations corresponding with the principles of his introductory reasoning.[89]

[89] COPY OF A PAPER COMMUNICATED TO J. M. BY COL. HAMILTON, ABOUT THE CLOSE OF THE CONVENTION IN PHILAD^A, 1787, WHICH HE SAID DELINEATED THE CONSTITUTION WHICH HE WOULD HAVE WISHED TO BE PROPOSED BY THE CONVENTION. HE HAD STATED THE PRINCIPLES OF IT IN THE COURSE OF THE DELIBERATIONS.

The people of the United States of America do ordain & establish this Constitution for the government of themselves and their posterity.

Article I

§ 1. The Legislative power shall be vested in two distinct bodies of men, one to be called the Assembly, the other the Senate, subject to the negative hereinafter mentioned.

§ 2. The Executive power, with the qualifications hereinafter specified, shall be vested in a President of the United States.

§ 3. The Supreme Judicial authority, except in the cases otherwise provided for in this Constitution, shall be vested in a Court to be called the SUPREME COURT, to consist of not less than six nor more than twelve Judges.

Article Ii

§ 1. The Assembly shall consist of persons to be called representatives, who shall be chosen, except in the first instance, by the free male citizens & inhabitants of the several States comprehended in the Union, all of whom of the age of twenty one years & upwards shall be entitled to an equal vote.

§ 2. But the first Assembly shall be chosen in the manner prescribed in the last article and shall consist of one hundred members of whom N. Hampshire shall have five, Massachusetts thirteen, Rhode Island two, Connecticut seven, N. York nine, N. Jersey six, Pennsylvania twelve, Delaware two, Maryland eight, Virginia sixteen, N. Carolina eight, S. Carolina eight, Georgia four.

§ 3. The Legislature shall provide for the future elections of Representatives, apportioning them in each State, from time to time, as nearly as may be to the number of persons described in the 4§ of the VII article, so as that the whole number of Representatives shall never be less than one hundred, nor more than ---- hundred. There shall be a Census taken for this purpose within three years after the first meeting of the Legislature, and within every successive period of ten years. The term for which Representatives shall be elected shall be determined by the Legislature but shall not exceed three years. There shall be a general election at least once in three years; and the time of service of all the members in each Assembly shall begin, (except in filling vacancies) on the same day, and shall always end on the same day.

§ 4. Forty members shall make a House sufficient to proceed to business; but their number may be increased by the Legislature, yet so as never to exceed a majority of the whole number of Representatives.

§ 5. The Assembly shall choose its President and other officers, shall judge of the qualifications & elections of its own members, punish them for improper conduct in their capacity of Representatives not extending to life or limb; and shall exclusively possess the power of impeachment except in the case of the President of the United States; but no impeachment of a member of the Senate shall be by less than two thirds of the Representatives present.

§ 6. Representatives may vote by proxy; but no Representative present shall be proxy for more than one who is absent.[A]

[A] Quere, ? (to provide for distant States).--Note in Madison's hand.

§ 7. Bills for raising revenue, and bills for appropriating monies for the support of fleets and armies, and for paying the salaries of the officers of Government, shall originate in the Assembly; but may be altered and amended by the Senate.

§ 8. The acceptance of an office under the United States by a Representative shall vacate his seat in the Assembly.

Article Iii

§ 1. The Senate shall consist of persons to be chosen, except in the first instance, by Electors elected for that purpose by the Citizens and inhabitants of the several States comprehended in the Union who shall have in their own right, or in the right of their wifes, an Estate in land for not less than life, or a term of years, whereof at the time of giving their votes there shall be at least fourteen years unexpired.

§ 2. But the first Senate shall be chosen in the manner prescribed in the last Article and shall consist of forty members to be called Senators, of whom N. Hampshire shall have ---- Mass^{ts} ---- R. Island ---- Connecticut ---- N. York ---- N. Jersey ---- Pen^a ---- Delaware ---- Mary^d ---- Virg^a ---- N. Carol. ---- S. Carol. ---- Geo. ----.

§ 3. The Legislature shall provide for the future elections of Senators, for which purpose the States respectively, which have more than one Senator, shall be divided into convenient districts to which the Senators shall be apportioned. A State having but one Senator shall be itself a district. On the death, resignation or removal from office of a Senator his place shall be supplied by a new election in the district from which he came. Upon each election there shall be not less than six nor more than twelve electors chosen in a district.

§ 4. The number of Senators shall never be less than forty, nor shall any State, if the same shall not hereafter be divided, ever have less than the number allotted to it in the second section of this article; but the Legislature may increase the whole number of Senators, in the same proportion to the whole number of Representatives as forty is to one hundred; and such increase beyond the present number, shall be apportioned to the respective States in a ratio to the respective numbers of their representatives.

§ 5. If States shall be divided, or if a new arrangement of the boundaries of two or more States shall take place, the Legislature shall apportion the number of Senators (in elections succeeding such division or new arrangement) to which the constituent parts were entitled according to the change of situation, having regard to the number of persons described in the 4 §. of the VII article.

§ 6. The Senators shall hold their places during good behaviour, removable only by conviction on impeachment for some crime or misdemeanor. They shall continue to exercise their offices when impeached untill a conviction shall take place. Sixteen Senators attending in person shall be sufficient to make a House to transact business; but the Legislature may increase this number, yet so as never to exceed a majority of the whole number of Senators. The Senators may vote by proxy, but no Senator who is present shall be proxy for more than two who are absent.

§ 7. The Senate shall choose its President and other officers; shall judge of the qualifications and elections of its members, and shall punish them for improper conduct in their capacity of Senators; but such punishment shall not extend to life or limb, nor to expulsion. In the absence of their President they may choose a temporary President. The President shall only have a casting vote when the House is equally divided.

§ 8. The Senate shall exclusively possess the power of declaring war. No treaty shall be made without their advice and consent; which shall also be necessary to the appointment of all officers, except such for which a different provision is made in this Constitution.

Article Iv

§ 1. The President of the United States of America, (except in the first instance) shall be elected in the manner following--The Judges of the Supreme Court shall within sixty days after a vacancy shall happen, cause public notice to be given in each State, of such vacancy, appointing therein three several days for the several purposes following, to wit, a day for commencing the election of electors for the purposes hereinafter specified, to be called the first electors, which day shall not be less than forty, nor more than sixty days, after the day of the publication of the notice in each State--another day for the meeting of the electors not less [than] forty nor more than ninety days from the day for commencing their election--another day for the meeting of electors to be chosen by the first electors, for the purpose hereinafter specified, and to be called the second Electors, which day shall be not less than forty nor more than sixty days after the day for the meeting of the first electors.

§ 2. After notice of a vacancy shall have been given there shall be chosen in each State a number of persons, as the first electors in the preceding section mentioned, equal to the whole number of the Representatives and Senators of such State in the Legislature of the United States; which electors shall be chosen by the Citizens of such State having an estate of inheritance or for three lives in land, or a clear personal estate of the value of one thousand Spanish milled dollars of the present standard.

§ 3. These first electors shall meet in their respective States at the time appointed, at one place; and shall proceed to vote by ballot for a President, who shall not be one of their own number, unless the Legislature upon experiment should hereafter direct otherwise. They shall cause two lists to be made of the name or names of the person or persons voted for, which they or the major part of them shall sign & certify. They shall then proceed each to nominate openly in the presence of the others, two persons as for second electors, and out of the persons who shall have the four highest numbers of nominations, they shall afterwards by ballot by plurality of votes choose two who shall be the second electors, to each of whom shall be delivered one of the lists before mentioned. These second electors shall not be any of the persons voted for as President. A copy of the same list signed and certified in like manner shall be transmitted by the first electors to the Seat of the Government of the United States, under a sealed cover directed to the President of the Assembly, which after the meeting of the Second electors shall be opened for the inspection of the two Houses of the Legislature.

§ 4. The second electors shall meet precisely on the day appointed and not on another day, at one place. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, or if there be no Chief Justice, the Judge senior in office in such Court, or if there be no one Judge senior in office, some other Judge of that Court, by the choice of the rest of the Judges or of a majority of them, shall attend at the same place and shall preside at the meeting, but shall have no vote. Two thirds of the whole number of the Electors shall constitute a sufficient meeting for the execution of their trust. At this meeting the lists delivered to the respective electors shall be produced and inspected, and if there be any person who has a majority of the whole number of votes given by the first electors, he shall be the President of the United States; but if there be no such person, the second electors so met shall proceed to vote, by ballot for one of the persons named in the lists who shall have the three highest numbers of the votes of the first electors; and if upon the first or any succeeding ballot on the day of their meeting, either of those persons shall have a number of votes equal to a majority of the whole number of second electors chosen, he shall be the President. But if no such choice be made on the day appointed for the meeting either by reason of the non-attendance of the second electors, or their not agreeing, or any other matter, the person having the greatest number of votes of the first electors shall be the President.

§ 5. If it should happen that the Chief Justice or some other Judge of the Supreme Court should not attend in due time, the second electors shall proceed to the execution of their trust without him.

§ 6. If the Judges should neglect to cause the notice required by the first section of this article to be given within the time therein limited, they may nevertheless cause it to be afterwards given; but their neglect if wilful, is hereby declared to be an offence for which they may be impeached, and if convicted they shall be punished as in other cases of conviction on impeachment.

§ 7. The Legislature shall by permanent laws provide such further regulations as may be necessary for the more orderly election of the President; not contravening the provisions herein contained.

§ 8. The President before he shall enter upon the execution of his office shall take an oath or affirmation, faithfully to execute the same, and to the utmost of his Judgment & power to protect the rights of the people, and preserve the Constitution inviolate. This oath or affirmation shall be administered by the President of the Senate for the time being in the presence of both Houses of the Legislature.

§ 9. The Senate and the Assembly shall always convene in Session on the day appointed for the meeting of the second electors and shall continue sitting till the President take the oath or affirmation of office. He shall hold his place during good behavior, removeable only by conviction upon impeachment for some crime or misdemeanor.

§ 10. The President at the beginning of every meeting of the Legislature as soon as they shall be ready to proceed to business, shall convene them together at the place where the Senate shall sit, and shall communicate to them all such matters as may be necessary for their information, or as may require their consideration. He may by message during the Session communicate all other matters which may appear to him proper. He may, whenever in his opinion the public business shall require it, convene the Senate and Assembly, or either of them, and may prorogue them for a time not exceeding forty days at one prorogation; and if they should disagree about their adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper. He shall have a right to negative all bills, Resolutions or acts of the two Houses of the Legislature about to be passed into laws. He shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed. He shall be the commander in chief of the army and Navy of the United States and of the Militia within the several States, and shall have the direction of war when commenced, but he shall not take the actual command in the field of an army without the consent of the Senate and Assembly. All treaties, conventions and agreements with foreign nations shall be made by him, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. He shall have the appointment of the Principal or Chief officer of each of the departments of war, naval Affairs, Finance and Foreign Affairs; and shall have the nomination; and by and with the consent of the Senate, the appointment of all other officers to be appointed under the authority of the United States, except such for whom different provision is made by this Constitution; and provided that this shall not be construed to prevent the Legislature, from appointing by name, in their laws, persons to special and particular trusts created in such laws; nor shall be construed to prevent principals in offices merely ministerial, from constituting deputies.--In the recess of the Senate he may fill vacancies in offices by appointments to continue in force until the end of the next Session of the Senate, and he shall commission all officers. He shall have power to pardon all offences except treason, for which he may grant reprieves, untill the opinion of the Senate & Assembly can be had, and with their concurrence may pardon the same.

§ 11. He shall receive a fixed compensation for his services to be paid to him at stated times, and not to be increased nor diminished during his continuance in office.

§ 12. If he depart out of the United States without the Consent of the Senate and Assembly, he shall thereby abdicate his office.

§ 13. He may be impeached for any crime or misdemeanor by the two Houses of the Legislature, two thirds of each House concurring, and if convicted shall be removed from office. He may be afterwards tried & punished in the ordinary course of law. His impeachment shall operate as a suspension from office until the determination thereof.

§ 14. The President of the Senate shall be vice President of the United States. On the death, resignation, impeachment, removal from office, or absence from the United States, of the President thereof, the Vice President shall exercise all the powers by this Constitution vested in the President, until another shall be appointed, or untill he shall return within the United States, if his absence was with the consent of the Senate and Assembly.

Article V

§ 1. There shall be a Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who together with the other Judges thereof, shall hold the office during good behaviour, removable only by conviction on impeachment for some crime or misdemeanor. Each Judge shall have a competent salary to be paid to him at stated times, and not to be diminished during his continuance in office.

The Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction in all causes in which the United States shall be a party, in all controversies between the United States, and a particular State, or between two or more States, except such as relate to a claim of territory between the United States, and one or more States, which shall be determined in the mode prescribed in the VI article; in all cases affecting foreign Ministers, Consuls and Agents; and an appellate jurisdiction both as to law and fact in all cases which shall concern the Citizens of foreign nations, in all questions between the Citizens of different States, and in all others in which the fundamental rights of this Constitution are involved, subject to such exceptions as are herein contained and to such regulations as the Legislature shall provide.

The Judges of all Courts which may be constituted by the Legislature shall also hold their places during good behaviour, removeable only by conviction on impeachment for some crime or misdemeanor, and shall have competent salaries to be paid at stated times and not to be diminished during their continuance in office; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to prevent the Legislature from abolishing such Courts themselves.

All crimes, except upon impeachment, shall be tried by a Jury of twelve men; and if they shall have been committed within any State, shall be tried within such State; and all civil causes arising under this constitution of the like kind with those which have been heretofore triable by Jury in the respective States, shall in like manner be tried by jury; unless in special cases the Legislature shall think proper to make different provision, to which provision the concurrence of two thirds of both Houses shall be necessary.

§ 2. Impeachments of the President and Vice President of the U. States, members of the Senate, the Governours and Presidents of the several States, the Principal or Chief Officers of the Departments enumerated in the 10 §. of the 4^{th} Article, Ambassadors and other like Public Ministers, the Judges of the Supreme Court, Generals, and Admirals of the Navy shall be tried by a Court to consist of the Judges of the Supreme Court, and the Chief Justice or first or Senior Judge of the superior Court of law in each State, of whom twelve shall constitute a Court. A majority of the Judges present may convict. All other persons shall be tried on impeachment by a court to consist of the Judges of the Supreme Court and six Senators drawn by lot, a majority of whom may convict.

Impeachments shall clearly specify the particular offence for which the party accused is to be tried, and judgment on conviction upon the trial thereof shall be either removal from office singly, or removal from office and disqualification for holding any future office or place of trust; but no Judgment on impeachment shall prevent prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law; provided that no Judge concerned in such conviction shall sit as Judge on the second trial. The Legislature may remove the disabilities incurred by conviction on impeachment.

Article Vi

Controversies about the right of territory between the United States and particular States shall be determined by a Court to be constituted in manner following. The State or States claiming in opposition to the United States as parties shall nominate a number of persons, equal to double the number of the Judges of the Supreme Court for the time being, of whom none shall be citizens by birth of the States which are parties, nor inhabitants thereof when nominated, and of whom not more than two shall have their actual residence in one State. Out of the persons so nominated the Senate shall elect one half, who together with the Judges of the Supreme Court, shall form the Court. Two thirds of the whole number may hear and determine the controversy, by plurality of voices. The States concerned may at their option claim a decision by the Supreme Court only. All of the members of the Court hereby instituted shall, prior to the hearing of the Cause take an oath impartially and according to the best of their judgments and consciences, to hear and determine the controversy.

Article Vii

§ 1. The Legislature of the United States shall have power to pass all laws which they shall judge necessary to the common defence and general welfare of the Union: But no Bill, Resolution, or act of the Senate and assembly shall have the force of a law until it shall have received the assent of the President, or of the vice-President when exercising the powers of the President; and if such assent shall not have been given within ten days, after such bill, resolution or other act shall have been presented to him for that purpose, the same shall not be a law. No bill, resolution or other act not assented to shall be revived in the same Session of the Legislature. The mode of signifying such assent, shall be by signing the bill act of [r] resolution, and returning it so signed to either House of the Legislature.

§ 2. The enacting stile of all laws shall be "Be it enacted by the people of the United States of America."

§ 3. No bill of attainder shall be passed, nor any ex post facto law; nor shall any title of nobility be granted by the United States, or by either of them; nor shall any person holding an office or place of trust under the United States without the permission of the Legislature accept any present, emolument office or title from a foreign prince or State. Nor shall any Religious Sect, or denomination, or religious test for any office or place, be ever established by law.

§ 4. Taxes on lands, houses and other real estate, and capitation taxes shall be proportioned in each State by the whole number of free persons, except Indians not taxed, and by three fifths of all other persons.

§ 5. The two Houses of the Legislature may by joint ballot appoint a Treasurer of the United States. Neither House in the Session of both Houses, without the consent of the other shall adjourn for more than three days at a time. The Senators and Representatives, in attending, going to and coming from the Session of their respective houses shall be privileged from arrest, except for crimes and breaches of the peace. The place of meeting shall always be at the seat of Government which shall be fixed by law.

§ 6. The laws of the United States, and the treaties which have been made under the articles of the confederation, and which shall be made under this Constitution shall be the supreme law of the Land, and shall be so construed by the Courts of the several States.

§ 7. The Legislature shall convene at least once in each year, which unless otherwise provided for by law, shall be on the first Monday in December.

§ 8. The members of the two Houses of the Legislature shall receive a reasonable compensation for their services, to be paid out of the Treasury of the United States and ascertained by law. The law for making such provision shall be passed with the concurrence of the first Assembly and shall extend to succeeding Assemblies; and no succeeding assembly shall concur in an alteration of such provision, so as to increase its own compensation; but there shall be always a law in existence for making such provision.

Article Viii

§ 1. The Governour or President of each State shall be appointed under the authority of the United States, and shall have a right to negative all laws about to be passed in the State of which he shall be Governour or President, subject to such qualifications and regulations, as the Legislature of the United States shall prescribe. He shall in other respects have the same powers only which the Constitution of the State does or shall allow to its Governour or President, except as to the appointment of Officers of the Militia.

§ 2. Each Governour or President of a State shall hold his office until a successor be actually appointed, unless he die, or resign or be removed from office by conviction on impeachment. There shall be no appointment of such Governor or President in the Recess of the Senate.

The Governours and Presidents of the several States at the time of the ratification of this Constitution shall continue in office in the same manner and with the same powers as if they had been appointed pursuant to the first section of this article.

The officers of the Militia in the several States may be appointed under the authority of the U. States; the Legislature whereof may authorize the Governors or Presidents of States to make such appointments with such restrictions as they shall think proper.

Article Ix

§ 1. No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States.

§ 2. No person shall be eligible as a Senator or Representative unless at the time of his election he be a Citizen and inhabitant of the State in which he is chosen; provided that he shall not be deemed to be disqualified by a temporary absence from the State.

§ 3. No person entitled by this Constitution to elect or to be elected President of the United States, or a Senator or Representative in the Legislature thereof, shall be disqualified but by the conviction of some offence for which the law shall have previously ordained the punishment of disqualification. But the Legislature may by law provide that persons holding offices under the United States or either of them shall not be eligible to a place in the Assembly or Senate, and shall be during their continuance in office suspended from sitting in the Senate.

§ 4. No person having an office or place of trust under the United States shall without permission of the Legislature accept any present emolument office or title from any foreign Prince or State.

§ 5. The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to the rights privileges and immunities of Citizens in every other State; and full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of another.

§ 6. Fugitives from justice from one State who shall be found in another shall be delivered up on the application of the State from which they fled.

§ 7. No new State shall be erected within the limits of another, or by the junction of two or more States, without the concurrent consent of the Legislatures of the United States and of the States concerned. The Legislature of the United States may admit new States into the Union.

§ 8. The United States are hereby declared to be bound to guarantee to each State a Republican form of Government, and to protect each State as well against domestic violence as foreign invasion.

§ 9. All Treaties, Contracts and engagements of the United States of America under the articles of Confederation and perpetual Union, shall have equal validity under this Constitution.

§ 10. No State shall enter into a Treaty, Alliance, or contract with another, or with a foreign power without the consent of the United States.

§ 11. The members of the Legislature of the United States and of each State, and all officers Executive & Judicial of the one and of the other shall take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution of the United States.

§ 12. This Constitution may receive such alterations and amendments as may be proposed by the Legislature of the United States, with the concurrence of two thirds of the members of both Houses, and ratified by the Legislatures of, or by Conventions of deputies chosen by the people in, two thirds of the States composing the Union.

Article X

This Constitution shall be submitted to the consideration of Conventions in the several States, the members whereof shall be chosen by the people of such States respectively under the direction of their respective Legislatures. Each Convention which shall ratify the same, shall appoint the first representatives and Senators from such State according to the rule prescribed in the ---- § of the ---- article. The representatives so appointed shall continue in office for one year only. Each Convention so ratifying shall give notice thereof to the Congress of the United States, transmitting at the same time a list of the Representatives and Senators chosen. When the Constitution shall have been duly ratified, Congress shall give notice of a day and place for the meeting of the Senators and Representatives from the several States; and when these or a majority of them shall have assembled according to such notice, they shall by joint ballot, by plurality of votes, elect a President of the United States; and the Constitution thus organized shall be carried into effect.--Mad. MSS.

"Col: Hamilton did not propose in the Convention any plan of a Constitution. He had sketched an outline which he read as part of a speech; observing that he did not mean it as a proposition, but only to give a more correct view of his ideas.

"Mr. Patterson regularly proposed a plan which was discussed & voted on."--Madison to John Quincy Adams, Montpellier, Nov. 2, 1818, Dept. of State MSS., Miscellaneous Letters.

Committee rose & the House Adjourned.

TUESDAY JUNE 19^{TH} IN COMMITTEE OF WHOLE ON THE PROPOSITIONS OF M^R PATTERSON,--[90]

[90] This was the last session of the Convention in Committee of the Whole.

The substitute offered yesterday by M^r Dickenson being rejected by a vote now taken on it; Con. N. Y. N. J. Del. ay. Mass. P^a V. N. C. S. C. Geo. no. Mary^d divided M^r Patterson's plan was again at large before the Committee.

M^r Madison. Much stress has been laid by some gentlemen on the want of power in the Convention to propose any other than a federal plan. To what had been answered by others, he would only add, that neither of the characteristics attached to a federal plan would support this objection. One characteristic, was that in a federal Government, the power was exercised not on the people individually; but on the people collectively, on the States. Yet in some instances as in piracies, captures &c. the existing Confederacy, and in many instances the amendments to it proposed by M^r Patterson, must operate immediately on individuals. The other characteristic was, that a federal Gov^t derived its appointments not immediately from the people, but from the States which they respectively composed. Here too were facts on the other side. In two of the States, Connect^t & Rh. Island, the delegates to Cong^s were chosen, not by the Legislatures, but by the people at large; and the plan of M^r P. intended no change in this particular.

It had been alledged (by M^r Patterson), that the Confederation having been formed by unanimous consent, could be dissolved by unanimous Consent only. Does this doctrine result from the nature of compacts? does it arise from any particular stipulation in the articles of Confederation? If we consider the federal Union as analagous to the fundamental compact by which individuals compose one Society, and which must in its theoretic origin at least, have been the unanimous act of the component members, it cannot be said that no dissolution of the compact can be effected without unanimous consent. A breach of the fundamental principles of the compact by a part of the Society would certainly absolve the other part from their obligations to it. If the breach of any article by any of the parties, does not set the others at liberty, it is because, the contrary is implied in the compact itself, and particularly by that law of it, which gives an indefinite authority to the majority to bind the whole in all cases. This latter circumstance shews that we are not to consider the federal Union as analagous to the social compact of individuals: for if it were so, a Majority would have a right to bind the rest, and even to form a new Constitution for the whole, which the Gentl^n from N. Jersey would be among the last to admit. If we consider the federal Union as analagous not to the Social compacts among individual men: but to the conventions among individual States, What is the doctrine resulting from these conventions? Clearly, according to the Expositors of the law of Nations, that a breach of any one article by any one party, leaves all the other parties at liberty, to consider the whole convention as dissolved, unless they choose rather to compel the delinquent party to repair the breach. In some treaties indeed it is expressly stipulated that a violation of particular articles shall not have this consequence, and even that particular articles shall remain in force during war, which in general is understood to dissolve all subsisting Treaties. But are there any exceptions of this sort to the Articles of Confederation? So far from it that there is not even an express stipulation that force shall be used to compell an offending member of the Union to discharge its duty. He observed that the violations of the federal articles had been numerous & notorious. Among the most notorious was an act of N. Jersey herself; by which she expressly refused to comply with a Constitutional requisition of Cong^s and yielded no farther to the expostulations of their deputies, than barely to rescind her vote of refusal without passing any positive act of compliance. He did not wish to draw any rigid inferences from these observations. He thought it proper however that the true nature of the existing confederacy should be investigated, and he was not anxious to strengthen the foundations on which it now stands.

Proceeding to the consideration of M^r Patterson's plan, he stated the object of a proper plan to be twofold. 1. to preserve the Union. 2. to provide a Governm^t that will remedy the evils felt by the States both in their united and individual capacities. Examine M^r P'^s plan, & say whether it promises satisfaction in these respects.

1. Will it prevent the violations of the law of nations & of Treaties which if not prevented must involve us in the calamities of foreign wars? The tendency of the States to these violations has been manifested in sundry instances. The files of Cong^s contain complaints already, from almost every Nation with which treaties have been formed. Hitherto indulgence has been shewn to us. This cannot be the permanent disposition of foreign nations. A rupture with other powers is among the greatest of national calamities. It ought therefore to be effectually provided that no part of a nation shall have it in its power to bring them on the whole. The existing Confederacy does not sufficiently provide against this evil. The proposed amendment to it does not supply the omission. It leaves the will of the States as uncontrouled as ever.

2. Will it prevent encroachments on the federal authority? A tendency to such encroachments has been sufficiently exemplified, among ourselves, as well as in every other confederated republic antient and modern. By the federal articles, transactions with the Indians appertain to Cong^s. Yet in several instances, the States have entered into treaties & wars with them. In like manner no two or more States can form among themselves any treaties &c. without the consent of Cong^s. Yet Virg^a & Mary^d in one instance--Pen^a & N. Jersey in another, have entered into compacts, without previous application or subsequent apology. No State again can of right raise troops in time of peace without the like consent. Of all cases of the league, this seems to require the most scrupulous observance. Has not Mass^{ts}, notwithstanding, the most powerful member of the Union, already raised a body of troops? Is she not now augmenting them, without having even deigned to apprise Cong^s of Her intention? In fine--Have we not seen the public land dealt out to Con^t to bribe her acquiescence in the decree constitutionally awarded ag^{st} her claim on the territory of Pen^a: for no other possible motive can account for the policy of Cong^s in that measure?--If we recur to the examples of other confederacies, we shall find in all of them the same tendency of the parts to encroach on the authority of the whole. He then reviewed the Amphyctionic & Achæan confederacies among the antients, and the Helvetic, Germanic & Belgic among the moderns, tracing their analogy to the U. States in the constitution and extent of their federal authorities--in the tendency of the particular members to usurp on these authorities, and to bring confusion & ruin on the whole.--He observed that the plan of Mr. Pat[er]son, besides omitting a controul over the States as a general defence of the federal prerogatives was particularly defective in two of its provisions. 1. Its ratification was not to be by the people at large, but by the legislatures. It could not therefore render the acts of Cong^s in pursuance of their powers, even legally paramount to the acts of the States. 2. It gave to the federal Tribunal an appellate jurisdiction only--even in the criminal cases enumerated. The necessity of any such provision supposed a danger of undue acquittals in the State tribunals, of what avail c^d an appellate tribunal be, after an acquittal? Besides in most if not all of the States, the Executives have by their respective Constitutions, the right of pard^g. How could this be taken from them by a legislative ratification only?

3. Will it prevent trespasses of the States on each other? Of these enough has been already seen. He instanced Acts of Virg^a & Maryland which gave a preference to their own Citizens in cases where the Citizens of other States are entitled to equality of privileges by the Articles of Confederation. He considered the emissions of paper money & other kindred measures as also aggressions. The States relatively to one another being each of them either Debtor or Creditor; The creditor States must suffer unjustly from every emission by the debtor States. We have seen retaliating Acts on the subject which threatened danger not to the harmony only, but the tranquillity of the Union. The plan of M^r Paterson, not giving even a negative on the Acts of the States, left them as much at liberty as ever to execute their unrighteous projects ag^{st} each other.

4. Will it secure the internal tranquillity of the States themselves? The insurrections in Mass^{ts} admonished all the States of the danger to which they were exposed. Yet the plan of M^r P. contained no provisions for supplying the defect of the Confederation on this point. According to the Republican theory indeed, Right & power being both vested in the majority, are held to be synonymous. According to fact & experience, a minority may in an appeal to force be an overmatch for the majority. 1. If the minority happen to include all such as possess the skill & habits of military life, with such as possess the great pecuniary resources, one third may conquer the remaining two thirds. 2. one third of those who participate in the choice of rulers may be rendered a majority by the accession of those whose poverty disqualifies them from a suffrage, & who for obvious reasons may be more ready to join the standard of sedition than that of established Government. 3. where slavery exists, the Republican Theory becomes still more fallacious.

5. Will it secure a good internal legislation & administration to the particular States? In developing the evils which vitiate the political system of the U. S. it is proper to take into view those which prevail within the States individually as well as those which affect them collectively: Since the former indirectly affect the whole; and there is great reason to believe that the pressure of them had a full share in the motives which produced the present Convention. Under this head he enumerated and animadverted on 1. the multiplicity of the laws passed by the several States. 2. the mutability of their laws. 3. the injustice of them. 4. the impotence of them: observing that M^r Patterson's plan contained no remedy for this dreadful class of evils, and could not therefore be received as an adequate provision for the exigencies of the Community.

6. Will it secure the Union ag^{st} the influence of foreign powers over its members. He pretended not to say that any such influence had yet been tried: but it was naturally to be expected that occasions would produce it. As lessons which claimed particular attention, he cited the intrigues practised among the Amphyctionic Confederates first by the Kings of Persia, and afterwards fatally by Philip of Macedon: Among the Achæans, first by Macedon & afterwards no less fatally by Rome: among the Swiss by Austria, France & the lesser neighbouring powers: among the members of the Germanic Body by France, England, Spain & Russia--And in the Belgic Republic, by all the great neighbouring powers. The plan of M^r Patterson, not giving to the general Councils any negative on the will of the particular States, left the door open for the like pernicious Machinations among ourselves.

7. He begged the smaller States which were most attached to M^r Patterson's plan to consider the situation in which it would leave them. In the first place they would continue to bear the whole expence of maintaining their Delegates in Congress. It ought not to be said that if they were willing to bear this burthen, no others had a right to complain. As far as it led the small States to forbear keeping up a representation, by which the public business was delayed, it was evidently a matter of common concern. An examination of the minutes of Congress would satisfy every one that the public business had been frequently delayed by this cause; and that the States most frequently unrepresented in Cong^s were not the larger States. He reminded the Convention of another consequence of leaving on a small State the burden of maintaining a Representation in Cong^s. During a considerable period of the War, one of the Representatives of Delaware, in whom alone before the signing of the Confederation the entire vote of that State and after that event one half of its vote, frequently resided, was a Citizen & Resident of Pen^a and held an office in his own State incompatible with an appointment from it to Cong^s. During another period, the same State was represented by three delegates two of whom were citizens of Penn^a and the third a Citizen of New Jersey. These expedients must have been intended to avoid the burden of supporting Delegates from their own State. But whatever might have been y^e cause, was not in effect the vote of one State doubled, and the influence of another increased by it? In the 2^d place the coercion, on which the efficacy of the plan depends, can never be exerted but on themselves. The larger States will be impregnable, the smaller only can feel the vengeance of it. He illustrated the position by the history of the Amphyctionic confederates: and the ban of the German Empire. It was the cobweb w^{ch} could entangle the weak, but would be the sport of the strong.

8. He begged them to consider the situation in which they would remain in case their pertinacious adherence to an inadmissible plan, should prevent the adoption of any plan. The contemplation of such an event was painful; but it would be prudent to submit to the task of examining it at a distance, that the means of escaping it might be the more readily embraced. Let the Union of the States be dissolved, and one of two consequences must happen. Either the States must remain individually independent & sovereign; or two or more Confederacies must be formed among them. In the first event would the small States be more secure ag^{st} the ambition & power of their larger neighbours, than they would be under a General Government pervading with equal energy every part of the Empire, and having an equal interest in protecting every part ag^{st} every other part? In the second, can the smaller expect that their larger neighbours would confederate with them on the principle of the present Confederacy, which gives to each member, an equal suffrage; or that they would exact less severe concessions from the smaller States, than are proposed in the scheme of M^r Randolph?

The great difficulty lies in the affair of Representation; and if this could be adjusted, all others would be surmountable. It was admitted by both the gentlemen from N. Jersey, (M^r Brearly and M^r Patterson) that it would not be just to allow Virg^a which was 16 times as large as Delaware an equal vote only. Their language was that it would not be safe for Delaware to allow Virg^a 16 times as many votes. The expedient proposed by them was that all the States should be thrown into one mass and a new partition be made into 13 equal parts. Would such a scheme be practicable? The dissimilarities existing in the rules of property, as well as in the manners, habits and prejudices of the different States, amounted to a prohibition of the attempt. It had been found impossible for the power of one of the most absolute princes in Europe (K. of France) directed by the wisdom of one of the most enlightened and patriotic Ministers (M^r Neckar) that any age has produced, to equalize in some points only the different usages & regulations of the different provinces. But admitting a general amalgamation and repartition of the States to be practicable, and the danger apprehended by the smaller States from a proportional representation to be real; would not a particular and voluntary coalition of these with their neighbours, be less inconvenient to the whole community, and equally effectual for their own safety. If N. Jersey or Delaware conceived that an advantage would accrue to them from an equalization of the States, in which case they would necessarily form a junction with their neighbours, why might not this end be attained by leaving them at liberty by the Constitution to form such a junction whenever they pleased? And why should they wish to obtrude a like arrangement on all the States, when it was, to say the least, extremely difficult, would be obnoxious to many of the States, and when neither the inconveniency, nor the benefit of the expedient to themselves, would be lessened by confining it to themselves.--The prospect of many new States to the Westward was another consideration of importance. If they should come into the Union at all, they would come when they contained but few inhabitants. If they sh^d be entitled to vote according to their proportions of inhabitants, all would be right & safe. Let them have an equal vote, and a more objectionable minority than ever might give law to the whole.[91]

[91] "Mr. Dickinson supposed that there were good regulations in both. Let us therefore contrast the one with the other, and consolidate such parts of them as the committee approve."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 140.

On a question for postponing generally the 1^{st} proposition of M^r Patterson's plan, it was agreed to: N. Y. & N. J. only being no.

On the question moved by M^r King whether the Co[~m]itee should rise & M^r Randolph's proposition be reported without alteration, which was in fact a question whether M^r R's should be adhered to as preferable to those of M^r Patterson;

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Copy of the Resol^{ns} of Mr. R. as altered in Com^e and reported to the House.

(Of M^r Randolph's plan as reported from the Co[~m]ittee)--the 1. propos: "that a Nat^l Gov^t ought to be established consisting &c." being taken up in the House.

M^r Wilson observed that by a Nat^l Gov^t he did not mean one that would swallow up the State Gov^{ts} as seemed to be wished by some gentlemen. He was tenacious of the idea of preserving the latter. He thought, contrary to the opinion of (Col. Hamilton) that they might not only subsist but subsist on friendly terms with the former. They were absolutely necessary for certain purposes which the former could not reach. All large Governments must be subdivided into lesser jurisdictions. As Examples he mentioned Persia, Rome, and particularly the divisions & subdivisions of England by Alfred.

Col. Hamilton coincided with the proposition as it stood in the Report. He had not been understood yesterday. By an abolition of the States, he meant that no boundary could be drawn between the National & State Legislatures; that the former must therefore have indefinite authority. If it were limited at all, the rivalship of the States would gradually subvert it. Even as Corporations the extent of some of them as V^a Mass^{ts} &c. would be formidable. As States, he thought they ought to be abolished. But he admitted the necessity of leaving in them, subordinate jurisdictions. The examples of Persia & the Roman Empire, cited by (M^r Wilson) were he thought in favor of his doctrine: the great powers delegated to the Satraps & proconsuls having frequently produced revolts, and schemes of independence.

M^r King wished as every thing depended on this proposition, that no objections might be improperly indulged ag^{st} the phraseology of it. He conceived that the import of the term "States" "Sovereignty" "national" "federal," had been often used & applied in the discussions inaccurately & delusively. The States were not "Sovereigns" in the sense contended for by some. They did not possess the peculiar features of sovereignty, they could not make war, nor peace, nor alliances nor treaties. Considering them as political Beings, they were dumb, for they could not speak to any for[~e]gn Sovereign whatever. They were deaf, for they could not hear any propositions from such Sovereign. They had not even the organs or faculties of defence or offence, for they could not of themselves raise troops, or equip vessels, for war. On the other side, if the Union of the States comprises the idea of a confederation, it comprises that also of consolidation. A Union of the States is a Union of the men composing them, from whence a national character results to the whole. Cong^s can act alone without the States--they can act & their acts will be binding ag^{st} the Instructions of the States. If they declare war: war is de jure declared--captures made in pursuance of it are lawful--no Acts of the States can vary the situation, or prevent the judicial consequences. If the States therefore retained some portion of their sovereignty, they had certainly divested themselves of essential portions of it. If they formed a confederacy in some respects--they formed a Nation in others. The Convention could clearly deliberate on & propose any alterations that Cong^s could have done under y^e federal articles, and Could not Cong^s propose by virtue of the last article, a change in any article whatever; and as well that relating to the equality of suffrage, as any other. He made these remarks to obviate some scruples which had been expressed. He doubted much the practicability of annihilating the States; but thought that much of their power ought to be taken from them.[92]

[92] King, in his notes, gives a résumé of his speech. It illustrates the accuracy of Madison's reporting:

"Answer (R. King) The States under the confed. are not sovereign States they can do no act but such as are of a subordinate nature or such as terminate in themselves--and even these are restrained--coinage, P. office &c. they are wholly incompetent to the exercise of any of the gt. & distinguishing acts of sovereignty--They can neither make nor receive (embassies) to or from any other sovereign--they have not the powers of injuring another or of defending themselves from an Injury offered from one another--they are deaf, dumb and impotent--these Faculties are yielded up and the U. S. in C. Assd. hold and possess them, and they alone can exercise them--they are so far out of the controul of the separate States yt. if every State in the Union was to instruct yr. Deleg., and those Delegates within ye powers of the Arts. of Union shd. do an act in violation of their Instructions it wd. nevertheless be valid. If they declared a war, any giving aid or comfort to the enemy wd. be Treason; if peace, any capture on the high seas wd. be piracy. This remark proves yt. the States are now subordinate corporations or societies and not sovereigns--these imperfect States are the confederates and they are the electors of the magistrates who exercise the national sovereignty. The Articles of Confedr. and perpetual Union, are partly federal & partly of the nature of a constitution or form of Govt. arising from and applying to the Citizens of the U. S. & not from the individual States.

"The only criterion of determining what is federal & what is national is this, those acts which are for the government of the States only are purely federal, those which are for the government of the Citizens of the individual States are national and not federal.

"If then the articles of Confedr. & perpetual union have this twofold capacity, and if they provide for an alteration in a certain mode, why may not they be so altered as that the federal article may be changed to a national one, and the national to a federal? I see no argument that can be objected to the authority. The 5th article regulates the influence of the several States and makes them equal--does not the confed. authorize this alteration, that instead of this Equality, one state may have double the Influence of another--I conceive it does--and so of every Article except that wh. destroys the Idea of a confedy. I think it may be proved that every article may be totally altered provided you have one guarantying to each State the right of regulating its private & internal affairs in the manner of a subordinate corporation.

"But admitting that the Arts, of Confed. & perpet. Union, or the powers of the Legis. did not extend to the proposed Reform; yet the public Deputations & the public Danger require it--the system proposed to be adopted is no scheme of a day, calculated to postpone the hour of Danger, & thus leave it to fall with double ruin on our successors--It is no crude and undigested plan; the child of narrow and unextensive views, brought forward under the Auspices of Cowardice & Irresolution--It is a measure of Decision, it is the foundation of Freedom & of national Glory. It will draw on itself and be able to support the severest scrutiny & Examination. It is no idle experiment, no romantic speculation--the measure forces itself upon wise men, and if they have not firmness to look it in the face and protect it--Farewell to the Freedom of our Government--our military glory will be tarnished and our boasts of Freedom will be the scorn of the Enemies of Liberty."--Life and Correspondence of Rufus King, i., 602, n.

M^r Martin.[93] said he considered that the separation from G. B. placed the 13 States in a state of Nature towards each other; that they would have remained in that state till this time, but for the confederation; that they entered into the Confederation on the footing of equality; that they met now to amend it on the same footing; and that he could never accede to a plan that would introduce an inequality and lay 10 States at the mercy of V^a Mass^{ts} and Penn^a.

[93] "Mr. Martin was educated for the Bar, and is Attorney general for the State of Maryland. This Gentleman possesses a good deal of information, but he has a very bad delivery, and so extremely prolix, that he never speaks without tiring the patience of all who hear him. He is about 34 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 330.

M^r Wilson, could not admit the doctrine that when the Colonies became independent of G. Britain, they became independent also of each other. He read the declaration of Independence, observing thereon that the United Colonies were declared to be free & independent States; and inferring that they were independent, not individually but Unitedly and that they were confederated as they were independent, States.

Col. Hamilton assented to the doctrine of M^r Wilson. He denied the doctrine that the States were thrown into a State of Nature. He was not yet prepared to admit the doctrine that the Confederacy, could be dissolved by partial infractions of it. He admitted that the States met now on an equal footing but could see no inference from that against concerting a change of the system in this particular. He took this occasion of observing for the purpose of appeasing the fears of the small States, that two circumstances would render them secure under a National Gov^t in which they might lose the equality of rank they now held: one was the local situation of the 3 largest States Virg^a Mass^{ts} & P^a. They were separated from each other by distance of place, and equally so, by all the peculiarities which distinguish the interests of one State from those of another. No combination therefore could be dreaded. In the second place, as there was a gradation in the States from V^a the largest down to Delaware the smallest, it would always happen that ambitious combinations among a few States might & w^d be counteracted by defensive combinations of greater extent among the rest. No combination has been seen among the large Counties merely as such, ag^{st} lesser Counties. The more close the Union of the States, and the more compleat the authority of the whole: the less opportunity will be allowed to the stronger States to injure the weaker.

Adj^d.

WEDNESDAY JUNE 20. 1897. IN CONVENTION.

M^r William Blount from N. Carolina took his seat.

1^{st} propos: of the Report of Com^e of the whole, before the House.

M^r Elseworth 2^{ded} by M^r Gorham, moves to alter it so as to run "that the Government of the United States ought to consist of a supreme legislative, Executive and Judiciary." This alteration he said would drop the word national, and retain the proper title "the United States." He could not admit the doctrine that a breach of any of the federal articles could dissolve the whole. It would be highly dangerous not to consider the Confederation as still subsisting. He wished also the plan of the Convention to go forth as an amendment of the articles of the Confederation, since under this idea the authority of the Legislatures could ratify it. If they are unwilling, the people will be so too. If the plan goes forth to the people for ratification several succeeding Conventions within the States would be unavoidable. He did not like these conventions. They were better fitted to pull down than to build up Constitutions.

M^r Randolph. did not object to the change of expression, but apprised the gentleman who wished for it that he did not admit it for the reasons assigned; particularly that of getting rid of a reference to the people for ratification. The motion of M^r Elsew^{th} was acquiesced in nem: con:

The 2^d Resol: "that the National Legislature ought to consist of two branches" taken up, the word "national" struck out as of course.

M^r Lansing. observed that the true question here was, whether the Convention would adhere to or depart from the foundation of the present Confederacy; and moved instead of the 2^d Resolution, "that the powers of Legislation be vested in the U. States in Congress." He had already assigned two reasons ag^{st} such an innovation as was proposed: 1. the want of competent powers in the Convention.--2. the state of the public mind. It had been observed by (M^r Madison) in discussing the first point, that in two States the Delegates to Cong^s were chosen by the people. Notwithstanding the first appearance of this remark, it had in fact no weight, as the Delegates however chosen, did not represent the people merely as so many individuals; but as forming a Sovereign State. (Mr. Randolph) put it, he said, on its true footing namely that the public safety superseded the scruple arising from the review of our powers. But in order to feel the force of this consideration, the same impression must be had of the public danger. He had not himself the same impression, and could not therefore dismiss his scruple. (M^r Wilson) contended that as the Convention were only to recommend, they might recommend what they pleased. He differed much from him. Any act whatever of so respectable a body must have a great effect, and if it does not succeed, will be a source of great dissentions. He admitted that there was no certain criterion of the Public mind on the subject. He therefore recurred to the evidence of it given by the opposition in the States to the scheme of an Impost. It could not be expected that those possessing Sovereignty could ever voluntarily part with it. It was not to be expected from any one State, much less from thirteen. He proceeded to make some observations on the plan itself and the argum^{ts} urged in support of it. The point of Representation could receive no elucidation from the case of England. The corruption of the boroughs did not proceed from their comparative smallness; but from the actual fewness of the inhabitants, some of them not having more than one or two. A great inequality existed in the Counties of England. Yet the like complaint of peculiar corruption in the small ones had not been made. It had been said that Congress represent the State Prejudices: will not any other body whether chosen by the Legislatures or people of the States, also represent their prejudices? It had been asserted by his colleague (Col. Hamilton) that there was no coincidence of interests among the large States that ought to excite fears of oppression in the smaller. If it were true that such a uniformity of interests existed among the States, there was equal safety for all of them, whether the representation remained as heretofore, or were proportioned as now proposed. It is proposed that the Gen^l Legislature shall have a negative on the laws of the States. Is it conceivable that there will be leisure for such a task? There will on the most moderate calculation, be as many Acts sent up from the States as there are days in the year. Will the members of the General Legislature be competent Judges? Will a gentleman from Georgia be a judge of the expediency of a law which is to operate in N. Hampshire. Such a Negative would be more injurious than that of Great Britain heretofore was. It is said that the National Gov^t must have the influence arising from the grant of offices and honors. In order to render such a Government effectual he believed such an influence to be necessary. But if the States will not agree to it, it is in vain, worse than in vain to make the proposition. If this influence is to be attained, the States must be entirely abolished. Will any one say this would ever be agreed to? He doubted whether any Gen^l Government equally beneficial to all can be attained. That now under consideration he is sure, must be utterly unattainable. He had another objection. The system was too novel & complex. No man could foresee what its operation will be either with respect to the Gen^l Gov^t or the State Gov^{ts}. One or other it has been surmised must absorb the whole.

Col. Mason. did not expect this point would have been reagitated. The essential differences between the two plans, had been clearly stated. The principal objections ag^{st} that of M^r R. were the want of power & the want of practicability. There can be no weight in the first as the fiat is not to be here, but in the people. He thought with his colleague M^r R. that there were besides certain crisises, in which all the ordinary cautions yielded to public necessity. He gave as an example, the eventual Treaty with G. B. in forming which the Co[~m]^{srs} of the U. S. had boldly disregarded the improvident shackles of Cong^s had given to their Country an honorable & happy peace, and instead of being censured for the transgression of their powers, had raised to themselves a monument more durable than brass. The impracticability of gaining the public concurrence he thought was still more groundless. (M^r Lansing) had cited the attempts of Congress to gain an enlargement of their powers, and had inferred from the miscarriage of these attempts, the hopelessness of the plan which he (M^r L) opposed. He thought a very different inference ought to have been drawn; viz that the plan which (M^r L) espoused, and which proposed to augment the powers of Congress, never could be expected to succeed. He meant not to throw any reflections on Cong^s as a body, much less on any particular members of it. He meant however to speak his sentiments without reserve on this subject; it was a privilege of age, and perhaps the only compensation which nature had given for, the privation of so many other enjoyments: and he should not scruple to exercise it freely. Is it to be thought that the people of America, so watchful over their interests; so jealous of their liberties, will give up their all, will surrender both the sword and the purse, to the same body, and that too not chosen immediately by themselves? They never will. They never ought. Will they trust such a body, with the regulation of their trade, with the regulation of their taxes; with all the other great powers, which are in contemplation? Will they give unbounded confidence to a secret Journal--to the intrigues--to the factions which in the nature of things appertain to such an Assembly? If any man doubts the existence of these characters of Congress, let him consult their Journals for the years 78, 79, & 80.--It will be said, that if the people are averse to parting with power, why is it hoped that they will part with it to a National Legislature. The proper answer is that in this case they do not part with power: they only transfer it from one sett of immediate Representatives to another sett.--Much has been said of the unsettled state of the mind of the people, he believed the mind of the people of America, as elsewhere, was unsettled as to some points; but settled as to others. In two points he was sure it was well settled. 1. in an attachment to Republican Government. 2. in an attachment to more than one branch in the Legislature. Their constitutions accord so generally in both these circumstances, that they seem almost to have been preconcerted. This must either have been a miracle, or have resulted from the genius of the people. The only exceptions to the establishm^t of two branches in the Legislatures are the State of P^a & Cong^s and the latter the only single one not chosen by the people themselves. What has been the consequence? The people have been constantly averse to giving that Body further powers--It was acknowledged by (M^r Patterson) that his plan could not be enforced without military coercion. Does he consider the force of this concession. The most jarring elements of Nature; fire & water themselves are not more incompatible that[n] such a mixture of civil liberty and military execution. Will the militia march from one State to another, in order to collect the arrears of taxes from the delinquent members of the Republic? Will they maintain an army for this purpose? Will not the Citizens of the invaded State assist one another till they rise as one Man, and shake off the Union altogether. Rebellion is the only case, in which the military force of the State can be properly exerted ag^{st} its Citizens. In one point of view he was struck with horror at the prospect of recurring to this expedient. To punish the non-payment of taxes with death, was a severity not yet adopted by despotism itself: yet this unexampled cruelty would be mercy compared to a military collection of revenue, in which the bayonet could make no discrimination between the innocent and the guilty. He took this occasion to repeat, that notwithstanding his solicitude to establish a national Government, he never would agree to abolish the State Gov^{ts} or render them absolutely insignificant. They were as necessary as the Gen^l Gov^t and he would be equally careful to preserve them. He was aware of the difficulty of drawing the line between them, but hoped it was not insurmountable. The Convention, tho' comprising so many distinguished characters, could not be expected to make a faultless Gov^t. And he would prefer trusting to Posterity the amendment of its defects, rather than to push the experiment too far.

M^r Luther Martin agreed with (Col Mason) as to the importance of the State Gov^{ts} he would support them at the expence of the Gen^l Gov^t which was instituted for the purpose of that support. He saw no necessity for two branches, and if it existed Congress might be organized into two. He considered Cong^s as representing the people, being chosen by the Legislatures who were chosen by the people. At any rate, Congress represented the Legislatures; and it was the Legislatures not the people who refused to enlarge their powers. Nor could the rule of voting have been the ground of objection, otherwise ten of the States must always have been ready, to place further confidence in Cong^s. The causes of repugnance must therefore be looked for elsewhere.--At the separation from the British Empire, the people of America preferred the establishment of themselves into thirteen separate sovereignties instead of incorporating themselves into one: to these they look up for the security of their lives, liberties & properties: to these they must look up. The federal Gov^t they formed, to defend the whole ag^{st} foreign nations, in case of war, and to defend the lesser States ag^{st} the ambition of the larger: they are afraid of granting power unnecessarily, lest they should defeat the original end of the Union; lest the powers should prove dangerous to the sovereignties of the particular States which the Union was meant to support; and expose the lesser to being swallowed up by the larger. He conceived also that the people of the States having already vested their powers in their respective Legislatures, could not resume them without a dissolution of their Governments. He was ag^{st} Conventions in the States: was not ag^{st} assisting States ag^{st} rebellious subjects; thought the federal plan of M^r Patterson did not require coercion more than the National one, as the latter must depend for the deficiency of its revenues on requisitions & quotas, and that a national Judiciary extended into the States would be ineffectual, and would be viewed with a jealousy inconsistent with its usefulness.

M^r Sherman 2^{ded} & supported M^r Lansings motion. He admitted two branches to be necessary in the State Legislatures, but saw no necessity for them in a Confederacy of States. The examples were all, of a single Council. Cong^s carried us thro' the war, and perhaps as well as any Gov^t could have done. The complaints at present are not that the views of Cong^s are unwise or unfaithful; but that their powers are insufficient for the execution of their views. The national debt & the want of power somewhere to draw forth the National resources, are the great matters that press. All the States were sensible of the defect of power in Cong^s. He thought much might be said in apology for the failure of the State Legislatures to comply with the Confederation. They were afraid of leaning too hard on the people, by accumulating taxes; no constitutional rule had been or could be observed in the quotas--the Accounts also were unsettled & every State supposed itself in advance, rather than in arrears. For want of a general system, taxes to a due amount had not been drawn from trade which was the most convenient resource. As almost all the States had agreed to the recommendation of Cong^s on the subject of an impost, it appeared clearly that they were willing to trust Cong^s with power to draw a revenue from Trade. There is no weight therefore in the argument drawn from a distrust of Cong^s for money matters being the most important of all, if the people will trust them with power as to them, they will trust them with any other necessary powers. Cong^s indeed by the confederation have in fact the right of saying how much the people shall pay, and to what purpose it shall be applied: and this right was granted to them in the expectation that it would in all cases have its effect. If another branch were to be added to Cong^s to be chosen by the people, it would serve to embarrass. The people would not much interest themselves in the elections, a few designing men in the large districts would carry their points, and the people would have no more confidence in their new representatives than in Cong^s. He saw no reason why the State Legislatures should be unfriendly as had been suggested, to Cong^s. If they appoint Cong^s and approve of their measures, they would be rather favourable and partial to them. The disparity of the States in point of size he perceived was the main difficulty. But the large States had not yet suffered from the equality of votes enjoyed by the small ones. In all great and general points, the interests of all the States were the same. The State of Virg^a notwithstanding the equality of votes, ratified the Confederation without, or even proposing, any alteration. Mass^{ts} also ratified without any material difficulty &c. In none of the ratifications is the want of two branches noticed or complained of. To consolidate the States as some had proposed would dissolve our Treaties with foreign Nations, which had been formed with us, as Confederated States. He did not however suppose that the creation of two branches in the Legislature would have such an effect. If the difficulty on the subject of representation can not be otherwise got over, he would agree to have two branches, and a proportional representation in one of them, provided each State had an equal voice in the other. This was necessary to secure the rights of the lesser States; otherwise three or four of the large States would rule the others as they please. Each State like each individual had its peculiar habits usages and manners, which constituted its happiness. It would not therefore give to others a power over this happiness, any more than an individual would do, when he could avoid it.

M^r Wilson. urged the necessity of two branches; observed that if a proper model were not to be found in other Confederacies it was not to be wondered at. The number of them was small & the duration of some at least short. The Amphyctionic and Achæan were formed in the infancy of political Science; and appear by their History & fate, to have contained radical defects. The Swiss & Belgic Confederacies were held together not by any vital principle of energy but by the incumbent pressure of formidable neighbouring nations: The German owed its continuance to the influence of the H. of Austria. He appealed to our own experience for the defects of our Confederacy. He had been 6 years in the 12 since the commencement of the Revolution, a member of Congress, and had felt all its weaknesses. He appealed to the recollection of others whether on many important occasions, the public interest had not been obstructed by the small members of the Union. The success of the Revolution was owing to other causes, than the Constitution of Congress. In many instances it went on even ag^{st} the difficulties arising from Cong^s themselves. He admitted that the large States did accede as had been stated, to the Confederation in its present form. But it was the effect of necessity not of choice. There are other instances of their yielding from the same motive to the unreasonable measures of the small States. The situation of things is now a little altered. He insisted that a jealousy would exist between the State Legislatures & the General Legislature: observing that the members of the former would have views & feelings very distinct in this respect from their constituents. A private Citizen of a State is indifferent whether power be exercised by the Gen^l or State Legislatures, provided it be exercised most for his happiness. His representative has an interest in its being exercised by the body to which he belongs. He will therefore view the National Legisl: with the eye of a jealous rival. He observed that the addresses of Cong^s to the people at large, had always been better received & produced greater effect, than those made to the Legislatures.

On the question for postponing in order to take up M^r Lansing's proposition "to vest the powers of legislation in Cong^s"

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On motion of the Deputies from Delaware, the question on the 2^d Resolution in the Report from the Committee of the whole was postponed till tomorrow.

Adj^d.

THURSDAY JUNE 21. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Jonathan Dayton from N. Jersey took his seat.[94]

[94] From June 21 to July 18 inclusive not copied by M^r Eppes.--Madison's Note. This applies evidently to notes he permitted Hon. George W. Eppes, Jefferson's son-in-law, to take.

Doc^r Johnson.[95] On a comparison of the two plans which had been proposed from Virginia & N. Jersey, it appeared that the peculiarity which characterized the latter was its being calculated to preserve the individuality of the States. The plan from V^a did not profess to destroy this individuality altogether, but was charged with such a tendency. One Gentleman alone (Col. Hamilton) in his animadversions on the plan of N. Jersey, boldly and decisively contended for an abolition of the State Gov^{ts}. M^r Wilson & the gentleman from Virg^a who also were adversaries of the plan of N. Jersey held a different language. They wished to leave the States in possession of a considerable, tho' a subordinate jurisdiction. They had not yet however shewn how this c^d consist with, or be secured ag^{st} the general sovereignty & jurisdiction, which they proposed to give to the National Government. If this could be shewn in such a manner as to satisfy the patrons of the N. Jersey propositions, that the individuality of the States would not be endangered, many of their objections would no doubt be removed. If this could not be shewn their objections would have their full force. He wished it therefore to be well considered whether in case the States, as was proposed, sh^d retain some portion of sovereignty at least, this portion could be preserved, without allowing them to participate effectually in the Gen^l Gov^t, without giving them each a distinct and equal vote for the purpose of defending themselves in the general Councils.

[95] "D^r Johnson is a character much celebrated for his legal knowledge; he is said to be one of the first classics in America, and certainly possesses a very strong and enlightened understanding.

"As an Orator in my opinion, there is nothing in him that warrants the high reputation which he has for public speaking. There is something in the tone of his voice not pleasing to the Ear,--but he is eloquent and clear,--always abounding with information and instruction. He was once employed as an Agent for the State of Connecticut to state her claims to certain landed territory before the British House of Commons; this Office he discharged with so much dignity, and made such an ingenious display of his powers, that he laid the foundation of a reputation which will probably last much longer than his own life. D^r Johnson is about sixty years of age, possesses the manners of a Gentleman, and engages the Hearts of Men by the sweetness of his temper, and that affectionate style of address with which he accosts his acquaintance."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 326.

M^r Wilson's respect for Doc^r Johnson, added to the importance of the subject led him to attempt, unprepared as he was, to solve the difficulty which had been started. It was asked how the Gen^l Gov^t and individuality of the particular States could be reconciled to each other; and how the latter could be secured ag^{st} the former? Might it not, on the other side be asked how the former was to be secured ag^{st} the latter? It was generally admitted that a jealousy & rivalship would be felt between the Gen^l & particular Gov^{ts}. As the plan now stood, tho' indeed contrary to his opinion, one branch of the Gen^l Gov^t (the Senate or second branch) was to be appointed by the State Legislatures. The State Legislatures, therefore, by this participation in the Gen^l Gov^t would have an opportunity of defending their rights. Ought not a reciprocal opportunity to be given to the Gen^l Gov^t of defending itself by having an appointment of some one constituent branch of the State Gov^{ts}. If a security be necessary on one side, it w^d seem reasonable to demand it on the other. But taking the matter in a more general view, he saw no danger to the States from the Gen^l Gov^t. In case a combination should be made by the large ones it w^d produce a general alarm among the rest; and the project w^d be frustrated. But there was no temptation to such a project. The States having in general a similar interest, in case of any propositions in the National Legislature to encroach on the State Legislatures, he conceived a general alarm w^d take place in the National Legislature itself, that it would communicate itself to the State Legislatures, and w^d finally spread among the people at large. The Gen^l Gov^t will be as ready to preserve the rights of the States as the latter are to preserve the rights of individuals; all the members of the former, having a common interest, as representatives of all the people of the latter, to leave the State Gov^{ts} in possession of what the people wish them to retain. He could not discover, therefore any danger whatever on the side from which it was apprehended. On the contrary, he conceived that in spite of every precaution the General Gov^t would be in perpetual danger of encroachments from the State Gov^{ts}.

M^r Madison was of opinion that there was 1. less danger of encroachment from the Gen^l Gov^t than from the State Gov^{ts} 2. that the mischief from encroachments would be less fatal if made by the former, than if made by the latter. 1. All the examples of other confederacies prove the greater tendency in such systems to anarchy than to tyranny; to a disobedience of the members than usurpations of the federal head. Our own experience had fully illustrated this tendency.--But it will be said that the proposed change in the principles & form of the Union will vary the tendency; that the Gen^l Gov^t will have real & greater powers, and will be derived in one branch at least from the people, not from the Gov^{ts} of the States. To give full force to this objection, let it be supposed for a moment that indefinite power should be given to the Gen^l Legislature, and the States reduced to Corporations dependent on the Gen^l Legislature; Why sh^d it follow that the Gen^l Gov^t w^d take from the States any branch of their power as far as its operation was beneficial, and its continuance desireable to the people? In some of the States, particularly in Connecticut, all the Townships are incorporated, and have a certain limited jurisdiction. Have the Representatives of the people of the Townships in the Legislature of the State ever endeavoured to despoil the Townships of any part of their local authority? As far as this local authority is convenient to the people they are attached to it; and their representatives chosen by & amenable to them, naturally respect their attachment to this, as much as their attachment to any other right or interest. The relation of a General Gov^t to State Gov^{ts} is parallel. 2. Guards were more necessary ag^{st} encroachments of the State Gov^{ts} on the Gen^l Gov^t than of the latter on the former. The great objection made ag^{st} an abolition of the State Gov^{ts} was that the Gen^l Gov^t could not extend its care to all the minute objects which fall under the cognizance of the local jurisdictions. The objection as stated lay not ag^{st} the probable abuse of the general power, but ag^{st} the imperfect use that could be made of it throughout so great an extent of country, and over so great a variety of objects. As far as its operation would be practicable it could not in this view be improper; as far as it would be impracticable, the conveniency of the Gen^l Gov^t itself would concur with that of the people in the maintenance of subordinate Governments. Were it practicable for the Gen^l Gov^t to extend its care to every requisite object without the cooperation of the State Gov^{ts} the people would not be less free as members of one great Republic than as members of thirteen small ones. A Citizen of Delaware was not more free than a Citizen of Virginia: nor would either be more free than a Citizen of America. Supposing therefore a tendency in the Gen^l Government to absorb the State Gov^{ts} no fatal consequence could result. Taking the reverse as the supposition, that a tendency should be left in the State Gov^{ts} towards an independence on the General Gov^t and the gloomy consequences need not be pointed out. The imagination of them, must have suggested to the States the experiment we are now making to prevent the calamity, and must have formed the chief motive with those present to undertake the arduous task.

On the question for resolving "that the Legislature ought to consist of two Branches"

Mass. ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. Jersey, no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The third resolution of the Report taken into consideration.

Gen^l Pinkney moved "that the 1^{st} branch, instead of being elected by the people, sh^d be elected in such manner as the Legislature of each State should direct." He urged 1. that this liberty would give more satisfaction, as the Legislatures could then accommodate the mode to the conveniency & opinions of the people. 2. that it would avoid the undue influence of large Counties which would prevail if the elections were to be made in districts as must be the mode intended by the Report of the Committee. 3. that otherwise disputed elections must be referred to the General Legislature which would be attended with intolerable expence and trouble to the distant parts of the Republic.

M^r L. Martin seconded the Motion.[96]

[96] After Martin's second, according to Yates: "M^r Madison. I oppose the motion--there are no difficulties, but they may be obviated in the details connected with the subject."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 149.

Col. Hamilton considered the Motion as intended manifestly to transfer the election from the people to the State Legislatures, which would essentially vitiate the plan. It would increase that State influence which could not be too watchfully guarded ag^{st}. All too must admit the possibility, in case the Gen^l Gov^t sh^d maintain itself, that the State Gov^{ts} might gradually dwindle into nothing. The system therefore sh^d not be engrafted on what might possibly fail.

M^r Mason urged the necessity of retaining the election by the people. Whatever inconveniency may attend the democratic principle, it must actuate one part of the Gov^t. It is the only security for the rights of the people.

M^r Sherman, would like an election by the Legislatures best, but is content with the plan as it stands.

M^r Rutlidge could not admit the solidity of the distinction between a mediate & immediate election by the people. It was the same thing to act by oneself, and to act by another. An election by the Legislature would be more refined than an election immediately by the people: and would be more likely to correspond with the sense of the whole community. If this Convention had been chosen by the people in districts it is not to be supposed that such proper characters would have been preferred. The Delegates to Cong^s he thought had also been fitter men than would have been appointed by the people at large.

M^r Wilson considered the election of the 1^{st} branch by the people not only as the Corner Stone, but as the foundation of the fabric: and that the difference between a mediate & immediate election was immense. The difference was particularly worthy of notice in this respect: that the Legislatures are actuated not merely by the sentiment of the people; but have an official sentiment opposed to that of the Gen^l Gov^t and perhaps to that of the people themselves.

M^r King enlarged on the same distinction. He supposed the Legislatures w^d constantly choose men subservient to their own views as contrasted to the general interest; and that they might even devise modes of election that w^d be subversive of the end in view. He remarked several instances in which the views of a State might be at variance with those of the Gen^l Gov^t: and mentioned particularly a competition between the National & State debts, for the most certain & productive funds.

Gen^l Pinkney was for making the State Gov^{ts} a part of the General System. If they were to be abolished, or lose their agency, S. Carolina & other States would have but a small share of the benefits of Gov^t.

On the question for Gen^l Pinkney motion to substitute election of the 1^{st} branch in such mode as the Legislatures should appoint, in stead of its being elected by the people"

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

General Pinkney then moved that the 1^{st} branch be elected by the people in such mode as the Legislatures should direct; but waived it on its being hinted that such a provision might be more properly tried in the detail of the plan.

On the question for y^e election of the 1^{st} branch by the people"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Election of the 1^{st} branch "for the term of three years," considered.

M^r Randolph moved to strike out, "three years" and insert "two years"--he was sensible that annual elections were a source of great mischiefs in the States, yet it was the want of such checks ag^{st} the popular intemperence as were now proposed, that rendered them so mischievous. He would have preferred annual to biennial, but for the extent of the U. S. and the inconveniency which would result from them to the representatives of the extreme parts of the Empire. The people were attached to frequency of elections. All the Constitutions of the States except that of S. Carolina, had established annual elections.

M^r Dickinson. The idea of annual elections was borrowed from the antient Usage of England, a country much less extensive than ours. He supposed biennial would be inconvenient. He preferred triennial, and in order to prevent the inconveniency of an entire change of the whole number at the same moment, suggested a rotation, by an annual election of one third.

M^r Elseworth was opposed to three years, supposing that even one year was preferable to two years. The people were fond of frequent elections and might be safely indulged in one branch of the Legislature. He moved for 1 year.

M^r Strong[97] seconded & supported the motion.

[97] "M^r Strong is a Lawyer of some eminence,--he has received a liberal education, and has good connections to recommend him. As a speaker he is feeble, and without confidence. This Gent^n is about thirty five years of age, and greatly in the esteem of his Colleagues."--Pierce's Notes, Amer. Hist. Rev. iii., 326.

M^r Wilson being for making the 1^{st} branch an effectual representation of the people at large, preferred an annual election of it. This frequency was most familiar & pleasing to the people. It would not be more inconvenient to them, than triennial elections, as the people in all the States have annual meetings with which the election of the National representatives might be made to co-incide. He did not conceive that it would be necessary for the Nat^l Leigsl: to sit constantly; perhaps not half--perhaps not one fourth of the year.

M^r Madison was persuaded that annual elections would be extremely inconvenient and apprehensive that biennial would be too much so; he did not mean inconvenient to the electors; but to the representatives. They would have to travel seven or eight hundred miles from the distant parts of the Union; and would probably not be allowed even a reimbursement of their expences. Besides, none of those who wished to be re-elected would remain at the seat of Governm^t; confiding that their absence would not affect them. The members of Cong^s had done this with few instances of disappointment. But as the choice was here to be made by the people themselves who would be much less complaisant to individuals, and much more susceptible of impressions from the presence of a Rival candidate, it must be supposed that the members from the most distant States would travel backwards & forwards at least as often as the elections should be repeated. Much was to be said also on the time requisite for new Members who would always form a large proportion, to acquire that knowledge of the affairs of the States in general without which their trust could not be usefully discharged.

M^r Sherman preferred annual elections, but would be content with biennial. He thought the Representatives ought to return home and mix with the people. By remaining at the seat of Gov^t they would acquire the habits of the place which might differ from those of their Constituents.

Col. Mason observed that the States being differently situated such a rule ought to be formed as would put them as nearly as possible on a level. If elections were annual the middle States would have a great advantage over the extreme ones. He wished them to be biennial; and the rather as in that case they would coincide with the periodical elections of S. Carolina as well of the other States.

Col. Hamilton urged the necessity of 3 years, there ought to be neither too much nor too little dependence, on the popular sentiments. The checks in the other branches of the Govern^t would be but feeble, and would need every auxiliary principle that could be interwoven. The British House of Commons were elected septennially, yet the democratic spirit of y^e Constitution had not ceased. Frequency of elections tended to make the people listless to them; and to facilitate the success of little cabals. This evil was complained of in all the States. In Virg^a it had been lately found necessary to force the attendance & voting of the people by severe regulations.

On the question for striking out "three years"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. div^d. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The motion for "two years" was then inserted nem. con.

Adj^d.

FRIDAY JUNE 22. IN CONVENTION

The clause in Resol. 3 "to receive fixed stipends to be paid out of the Nation^l Treasury" considered.

M^r Elseworth, moved to substitute payment by the States out of their own Treasurys: observing that the manners of different States were very different in the stile of living and in the profits accruing from the exercise of like talents. What would be deemed therefore a reasonable compensation in some States, in others would be very unpopular, and might impede the system of which it made a part.

M^r Williamson favored the idea. He reminded the House of the prospect of new States to the Westward. They would be too poor--would pay little into the common Treasury--and would have a different interest from the old States. He did not think therefore that the latter ought to pay the expences of men who would be employed in thwarting their measures & interests.

M^r Ghorum[98] wished not to refer the matter to the State Legislatures who were always paring down salaries in such a manner as to keep out of offices men most capable of executing the functions of them. He thought also it would be wrong to fix the compensations by the constitution, because we could not venture to make it as liberal as it ought to be without exciting an enmity ag^{st} the whole plan. Let the Nat^l Legisl: provide for their own wages from time to time; as the State Legislatures do. He had not seen this part of their power abused, nor did he apprehend an abuse of it.

[98] "M^r Gorham is a merchant in Boston, high in reputation, and much in the esteem of his country-men. He is a man of very good sense, but not much improved in his education. He is eloquent and easy in public debate, but has nothing fashionable or elegant in his style;--all he aims at is to convince, and where he fails it never is from his auditory not understanding him, for no man is more perspicuous and full. He has been President of Congress, and three years a Member of that Body. M^r Gorham is about 46 years of age, rather lusty, and has an agreeable and pleasing manner."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 325.

M^r Randolph said he feared we were going too far, in consulting popular prejudices. Whatever respect might be due to them, in lesser matters, or in cases where they formed the permanent character of the people, he thought it neither incumbent on nor honorable for the Convention, to sacrifice right & justice to that consideration. If the States were to pay the members of the Nat^l Legislature, a dependence would be created that would vitiate the whole System. The whole nation has an interest in the attendance & services of the members. The Nation^l Treasury therefore is the proper fund for supporting them.

M^r King, urged the danger of creating a dependence on the States by leav^g to them the payment of the members of the Nat^l Legislature. He supposed it w^d be best to be explicit as to the compensation to be allowed. A reserve on that point, or a reference to the Nat^l Legislature of the quantum, would excite greater opposition than any sum that would be actually necessary or proper.

M^r Sherman contended for referring both the quantum and the payment of it to the State Legislatures.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} fixing the compensation as circumstances would change and call for a change of the amount. He thought it of great moment that the members of the Nat^l Gov^t should be left as independent as possible of the State Gov^{ts} in all respects.

M^r Madison concurred in the necessity of preserving the compensations for the Nat^l Gov^t independent on the State Gov^{ts} but at the same time approved of fixing them by the Constitution, which might be done by taking a standard which w^d not vary with circumstances. He disliked particularly the policy suggested by M^r Williamson of leaving the members from the poor States beyond the Mountains, to the precarious & parsimonious support of their constituents. If the Western States hereafter arising should be admitted into the Union, they ought to be considered as equals & as brethren. If their representatives were to be associated in the Common Councils, it was of common concern that such provisions should be made as would invite the most capable and respectable characters into the service.

M^r Hamilton apprehended inconveniency from fixing the wages. He was strenuous ag^{st} making the National Council dependent on the Legislative rewards of the States. Those who pay are the masters of those who are paid. Payment by the States would be unequal as the distant States would have to pay for the same term of attendance and more days in travelling to & from the seat of the Gov^t. He expatiated emphatically on the difference between the feelings & views of the people--& the Governments of the States arising from the personal interest & official inducements which must render the latter unfriendly to the Gen^l Gov^t.

M^r Wilson moved that the Salaries of the 1^{st} branch "be ascertained by the National Legislature," and be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury.

M^r Madison, thought the members of the Legis^l too much interested to ascertain their own compensation. It w^d be indecent to put their hands into the public purse for the sake of their own pockets.

On this question Mass. no. Con^t no. N. Y. div^d N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. div^d.

On the question for striking out "Nat^l Treasury" as moved by M^r Elseworth.

M^r Hamilton renewed his opposition to it. He pressed the distinction between the State Gov^{ts} & the people. The former w^d be the rivals of the Gen^l Gov^t. The State legislatures ought not therefore to be the paymasters of the latter.

M^r Elseworth. If we are jealous of the State Gov^{ts} they will be so of us. If on going home I tell them we gave the Gen: Gov^t such powers because we c^d not trust you. Will they adopt it, and with^t y^r approbation it is a nullity.[99]

[99] According to Yates, Wilson followed Ellsworth: "Mr. Wilson. I am not for submitting the national government to the approbation of the state legislatures. I know that they and the state officers will oppose it. I am for carrying it to the people of each state."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 153.

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. no. Pen^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. div^d.[100]

[100] (It appeared that Mass^{ts} concurred, not because they thought the State Treas^y ought to be substituted; but because they thought nothing should be said on the subject, in which case it w^d silently devolve on the Nat^l Treasury to support the National Legislature.)--Madison's Note.

On a question for substituting "adequate compensation" in place of "fixt stipends" it was agreed to nem. con. the friends of the latter being willing that the practicability of fixing the compensation should be considered hereafter in forming the details.

It was then moved by M^r Butler that a question be taken on both points jointly; to wit "adequate compensation to be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury." It was objected to as out of order, the parts having been separately decided on. The Presid^t refer^d the question of order to the House, and it was determined to be in order. Con. N. J. Del. M^d N. C. S. C.--ay.--N. Y. P^a V^a Geo. no.--Mass. divided. The question on the sentence was then postponed by S. Carolina in right of the State.

Col. Mason moved to insert "twenty-five years of age as a qualification for the members of the 1^{st} branch." He thought it absurd that a man today should not be permitted by the law to make a bargain for himself, and tomorrow should be authorized to manage the affairs of a great nation. It was more extraordinary as every man carried with him in his own experience a scale for measuring the deficiency of young politicians; since he would if interrogated be obliged to declare that his political opinions at the age of 21. were too crude & erroneous to merit an influence on public measures. It had been said that Cong^s had proved a good school for our young men. It might be so for any thing he knew but if it were, he chose that they should bear the expence of their own education.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} abridging the rights of election in any shape. It was the same thing whether this were done by disqualifying the objects of choice, or the persons chusing. The motion tended to damp the efforts of genius, and of laudable ambition. There was no more reason for incapacitating youth than age, where the requisite qualifications were found. Many instances might be mentioned of signal services rendered in high stations to the public before the age of 25: The present M^r Pitt and Lord Bolingbroke were striking instances.

On the question for inserting "25 years of age"

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Ghorum moved to strike out the last member of the 3 Resol: concerning ineligibility of members of the 1^{st} branch to office during the term of their membership & for one year after. He considered it as unnecessary & injurious. It was true abuses had been displayed in G. B. but no one c^d say how far they might have contributed to preserve the due influence of the Gov^t nor what might have ensued in case the contrary theory had been tried.

M^r Butler opposed it. This precaution ag^{st} intrigue was necessary. He appealed to the example of G. B. where men got into Parl^t that they might get offices for themselves or their friends. This was the source of the corruption that ruined their Gov^t.

M^r King, thought we were refining too much. Such a restriction on the members would discourage merit. It would also give a pretext to the Executive for bad appointments, as he might always plead this as a bar to the choice he wished to have made.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} fettering elections, and discouraging merit. He suggested also the fatal consequence in time of war, of rendering perhaps the best Commanders ineligible; appealing to our situation during the late war, and indirectly leading to a recollection of the appointment of the Co[~m]ander in Chief out of Congress.[101]

[101] According to Yates, Madison followed Wilson:

"Mr. Madison. Some gentlemen give too much weight and others too little to this subject. If you have no exclusive clause, there may be danger of creating offices or augmenting the stipends of those already created, in order to gratify some members if they were not excluded. Such an instance has fallen within my own observation. I am therefore of opinion, that no office ought to be open to a member, which may be created or augmented while he is in the legislature."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 155. Yates gives the rest of the debate as follows:

"Mr. Mason. It seems as if it was taken for granted, that all offices will be filled by the executive, while I think many will remain in the gift of the legislature. In either case, it is necessary to shut the door against corruption. If otherwise, they may make or multiply offices, in order to fill them. Are gentlemen in earnest when they suppose that this exclusion will prevent the first characters from coming forward? Are we not struck at seeing the luxury and venality which has already crept in among us? If not checked we shall have ambassadors to every petty state in Europe--the little republic of St. Marino not excepted. We must in the present system remove the temptation. I admire many parts of the British constitution and government, but I detest their corruption.--Why has the power of the crown so remarkably increased the last century? A stranger, by reading their laws, would suppose it considerably diminished; and yet, by the sole power of appointing the increased officers of government, corruption pervades every town and village in the kingdom. If such a restriction should abridge the right of election, it is still necessary, as it will prevent the people from ruining themselves; and will not the same causes here produce the same effects? I consider this clause as the corner-stone on which our liberties depend--and if we strike it out we are erecting a fabric for our destruction.

"Mr. Gorham. The corruption of the English government cannot be applied to America. This evil exists there in the venality of their boroughs; but even this corruption has its advantage, as it gives stability to their government. We do not know what the effect would be if members of parliament were excluded from offices. The great bulwark of our liberty is the frequency of elections, and the great danger is the septennial parliaments.

"Mr. Hamilton. In all general questions which become the subjects of discussion, there are always some truths mixed with falsehoods. I confess there is danger where men are capable of holding two offices. Take mankind in general, they are vicious--their passions may be operated upon. We have been taught to reprobate the danger of influence in the British government, without duly reflecting how far it was necessary to support a good government. We have taken up many ideas on trust, and at last, pleased with their own opinions, establish them as undoubted truths. Hume's opinion of the British constitution confirms the remark, that there is always a body of firm patriots, who often shake a corrupt administration. Take mankind as they are, and what are they governed by? Their passions. There may be in every government a few choice spirits, who may act from more worthy motives. One great error is that we suppose mankind more honest than they are. Our prevailing passions are ambition and interest; and it will ever be the duty of a wise government to avail itself of those passions, in order to make them subservient to the public good--for these ever induce us to action. Perhaps a few men in a state, may, from patriotic motives, or to display their talents, or to reap the advantage of public applause, step forward; but if we adopt the clause, we destroy the motive. I am therefore against all exclusions and refinements, except only in this case; that when a member takes his seat, he should vacate every other office. It is difficult to put any exclusive regulation into effect. We must in some degree submit to the inconvenience."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 155, 156.

Col. Mason was for shutting the door at all events ag^{st} corruption. He enlarged on the venality and abuses in this particular in G. Britain: and alluded to the multiplicity of foreign Embassies by Cong^s. The disqualification he regarded as a corner stone in the fabric.

Col. Hamilton, there are inconveniences on both sides. We must take man as we find him, and if we expect him to serve the public must interest his passions in doing so. A reliance on pure patriotism had been the source of many of our errors. He thought the remark of M^r Ghorum a just one. It was impossible to say what w^d be the effect in G. B. of such a reform as had been urged. It was known that one of the ablest politicians (M^r Hume) had pronounced all that influence on the side of the crown, which went under the name of corruption, an essential part of the weight which maintained the equilibrium of the Constitution.

On M^r Ghorum's Motion for striking out "ineligibility,"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. div^d. N. J. ay. P^a div^d. Del. div^d. Mar^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. G^a ay.

Adj^d.

SATURDAY JUNE 23. IN CONVENTION

The 3^d Resol: resumed.

On Question yesterday postponed by S. Carol: for agreeing to the whole sentence "for allowing an adequate compensation to be paid out of the Treasury of the U. States"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pen^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. divided. So the question was lost, & the sentence not inserted:

Gen^l Pinkney moves to strike out the ineligibility of members of the 1^{st} branch to offices established "by a particular State." He argued from the inconveniency to which such a restriction would expose both the members of the 1^{st} branch, and the States wishing for their services; & from the smallness of the object to be attained by the restriction.

It w^d seem from the ideas of some that we are erecting a Kingdom to be divided ag^{st} itself,[102] he disapproved such a fetter on the Legislature.

[102] According to Yates Wilson followed Pinckney: "Mr. Wilson. I perceive that some gentlemen are of opinion to give a bias in favor of state governments. This question ought to stand on the same footing."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 157.

M^r Sherman seconds the motion. It w^d seem that we are erecting a Kingdom at war with itself. The Legislature ought not to [be] fettered in such a case. On the question

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. M^d div^d. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison renewed his motion yesterday made & waved to render the members of the 1^{st} branch "ineligible during their term of service, & for one year after--to such offices only as should be established, or the emoluments thereof augmented, by the Legislature of the U. States during the time of their being members." He supposed that the unnecessary creation of offices, and increase of salaries, were the evils most experienced, & that if the door was shut ag^{st} them: it might properly be left open for the appoint^t of members to other offices as an encouragem^t to the Legislative service.

M^r Alex: Martin[103] seconded the Motion.

[103] "Mr. Martin was lately Governor of North Carolina, which office he filled with credit. He is a man of sense, and undoubtedly is a good politician, but he is not formed to shine in public debate, being no speaker. Mr. Martin was once a Colonel in the American Army, but proved unfit for the field. He is about 40 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 332.

M^r Butler. The amend^t does not go far eno. & w^d be easily evaded.

M^r Rutlidge, was for preserving the Legislature as pure as possible, by shutting the door against appointments of its own members to offices, which was one source of its corruption.

M^r Mason.[104] The motion of my colleague is but a partial remedy for the evil. He appealed to him as a witness of the shameful partiality of the Legislature of Virginia to its own members. He enlarged on the abuses & corruption in the British Parliament, connected with the appointment of its members. He c^d not suppose that a sufficient number of Citizens could not be found who would be ready, without the inducement of eligibility to offices, to undertake the Legislative service. Genius & virtue it may be said, ought to be encouraged. Genius, for aught he knew, might, but that virtue should be encouraged by such a species of venality, was an idea, that at least had the merit of being new.

[104] Yates gives Mason's speech more fully and a speech by Madison omitted here:

"Mr. Mason. I differ from my colleague in his proposed amendment. Let me state the practice in the state where we came from. There, all officers are appointed by the legislature. Need I add, that many of their appointments are most shameful. Nor will the check proposed by this amendment be sufficient. It will soon cease to be any check at all. It is asserted that it will be very difficult to find men sufficiently qualified as legislators without the inducement of emolument. I do believe that men of genius will be deterred unless possessed of great virtues. We may well dispense with the first characters when destitute of virtue--I should wish them never to come forward--But if we do not provide against corruption, our government will soon be at an end; nor would I wish to put a man of virtue in the way of temptation. Evasions and caballing would evade the amendment. Nor would the danger be less, if the executive has the appointment of officers. The first three or four years we might go on well enough; but what would be the case afterwards? I will add, that such a government ought to be refused by the people--and it will be refused.

Article X (part 2)

"Mr. Madison. My wish is that the national legislature be as uncorrupt as possible. I believe all public bodies are inclined, from various motives, to support its members; but it is not always done from the base motives of venality. Friendship, and a knowledge of the abilities of those with whom they associate, may produce it. If you bar the door against such attachments, you deprive the government of its greatest strength and support. Can you always rely on the patriotism of the members? If this be the only inducement, you will find a great indifferency in filling your legislative body. If we expect to call forth useful characters, we must hold out allurements; nor can any great inconveniency arise from such inducements. The legislative body must be the road to public honor; and the advantage will be greater to adopt my motion, than any possible inconvenience."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 158.

M^r King remarked that we were refining too much in this business; and that the idea of preventing intrigue and solicitation of offices was chimerical. You say that no member shall himself be eligible to any office. Will this restrain him from availing himself of the same means which would gain appointments for himself, to gain them for his son, his brother, or any other object of his partiality. We were losing therefore the advantages on one side, without avoiding the evils on the other.

M^r Wilson supported the motion. The proper cure he said for corruption in the Legislature was to take from it the power of appointing to offices. One branch of corruption would indeed remain, that of creating unnecessary offices, or granting unnecessary salaries, and for that the amendment would be a proper remedy. He animadverted on the impropriety of stigmatizing with the name of venality the laudable ambition of rising into the honorable offices of the Government; an ambition most likely to be felt in the early & most incorrupt period of life, & which all wise & free Gov^{ts} had deemed it sound policy, to cherish, not to check. The members of the Legislature have perhaps the hardest & least profitable task of any who engage in the service of the state. Ought this merit to be made a disqualification?

M^r Sherman observed that the motion did not go far enough. It might be evaded by the creation of a new office, the translation to it of a person from another office, and the appointment of a member of the Legislature to the latter. A new Embassy might be established to a new Court, & an ambassador taken from another, in order to create a vacancy for a favorite member. He admitted that inconveniences lay on both sides. He hoped there w^d be sufficient inducements to the public service without resorting to the prospect of desirable offices, and on the whole was rather ag^{st} the motion of M^r Madison.

M^r Gerry thought there was great weight in the objection of M^r Sherman. He added as another objection ag^{st} admitting the eligibility of members in any case that it would produce intrigues of ambitious men for displacing proper officers, in order to create vacancies for themselves.[105] In answer to M^r King he observed that although members, if disqualified themselves might still intrigue & cabal for their sons, brothers &c., yet as their own interests would be dearer to them, than those of their nearest connections, it might be expected they would go greater lengths to promote it.

[105] Yates gives Gerry's remarks: "This amendment is of great weight, and its consequences ought to be well considered. At the beginning of the war, we possessed more than Roman virtue. It appears to me it is now the reverse. We have more land and stock-jobbers than any place on earth. It appears to me that we have constantly endeavored to keep distinct the three great branches of government; but if we agree to this motion, it must be destroyed by admitting the legislators to share in the executive, or to be too much influenced by the executive, in looking up to them for offices."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 160.

M^r Madison had been led to this motion as a middle ground between an eligibility in all cases, and an absolute disqualification. He admitted the probable abuses of an eligibility of the members, to offices particularly within the gift of the Legislature. He had witnessed the partiality of such bodies to their own members, as had been remarked of the Virginia Assembly by his colleague (Col. Mason). He appealed however to him, in turn to vouch another fact not less notorious in Virginia, that the backwardness of the best citizens to engage in the Legislative service gave but too great success to unfit characters. The question was not to be viewed on one side only. The advantages & disadvantages on both ought to be fairly compared. The objects to be aimed at were to fill all offices with the fittest characters, & to draw the wisest & most worthy citizens into the Legislative service. If on one hand, public bodies were partial to their own members; on the other they were as apt to be misled by taking characters on report, or the authority of patrons and dependents.

All who had been concerned in the appointment of strangers on those recommendations must be sensible of this truth. Nor w^d the partialities of such Bodies be obviated by disqualifying their own members. Candidates for office would hover round the seat of Gov^t or be found among the residents there, and practise all the means of counting the favor of the members. A great proportion of the appointments made by the States were evidently brought about in this way. In the General Gov^t the evil must be still greater, the characters of distant states, being much less known throughout the U. States than those of the distant parts of the same State. The elections by Congress had generally turned on men living at the seat of the fed^l Gov^t or in its neighbourhood.--As to the next object, the impulse to the Legislative service, was evinced by experience to be in general too feeble with those best qualified for it. This inconveniency w^d also be more felt in the Nat^l Gov^t than in the State Gov^{ts} as the Sacrifices req^d from the distant members, w^d be much greater, and the pecuniary provisions, probably, more disproportionate. It w^d therefore be impolitic to add fresh objections to the Legislative service by an absolute disqualification of its members. The point in question was whether this would be an objection with the most capable citizens. Arguing from experience he concluded that it would. The Legislature of Virg^a would probably have been without many of its best members, if in that situation, they had been ineligible to Cong^s to the Gov^t & other honorable offices of the State.

M^r Butler thought Characters fit for office w^d never be unknown.

Col. Mason. If the members of the Legislature are disqualified, still the honors of the State will induce those who aspire to them to enter that service, as the field in which they can best display & improve their talents, & lay the train for their subsequent advancement.

M^r Jenifer remarked that in Maryland, the Senators chosen for five years, c^d hold no other office & that this circumstance gained them the greatest confidence of the people.

On the question for agreeing to the motion of M^r Madison,

Mass^{ts} div^d. C^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Sherman mov^d to insert the words "and incapable of holding" after the words "eligible to offices" w^{ch} was agreed to without opposition.

The word "established" & the words "Nat^l Gov^t" were struck out of the Resolution 3^d.

M^r Spaight called for a division of the question, in consequence of which it was so put, as that it turned in the first member of it, "on the ineligibility of members during the term for which they were elected"--whereon the States were,

Mass^{ts} div^d. C^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On the 2^d member of the sentence extending ineligibility of members to one year after the term for which they were elected Col. Mason thought this essential to guard ag^{st} evasions by resignations, and stipulations for office to be filled at the expiration of the legislative term. M^r Gerry, had known such a case. M^r Hamilton. Evasions c^d not be prevented--as by proxies--by friends holding for a year, & then opening the way &c. M^r Rutlidge admitted the possibility of evasions, but was for contracting them as possible.

Mass. no. C^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a div^d. Del. ay. Mar^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Adj^d.

MONDAY, JUNE 25. IN CONVENTION.

Resolution 4. being taken up.

M^r Pinkney spoke as follows--[106] The efficacy of the System will depend on this article. In order to form a right judgm^t in the case, it will be proper to examine the situation of this Country more accurately than it has yet been done. The people of the U. States are perhaps the most singular of any we are acquainted with. Among them there are fewer distinctions of fortune & less of rank, than among the inhabitants of any other nation. Every freeman has a right to the same protection & security; and a very moderate share of property entitles them to the possession of all the honors and privileges the Public can bestow: hence arises a greater equality, than is to be found among the people of any other Country, and an equality which is more likely to continue--I say this equality is likely to continue, because in a new Country, possessing immense tracts of uncultivated lands, where every temptation is offered to emigration & where industry must be rewarded with competency, there will be few poor, and few dependent--Every member of the Society almost, will enjoy an equal power of arriving at the supreme offices & consequently of directing the strength & sentiments of the whole Community. None will be excluded by birth, & few by fortune, from voting for proper persons to fill the offices of Government--the whole community will enjoy in the fullest sense that kind of political liberty which consists in the power the members of the State reserve to themselves, of arriving at the Public offices, or at least, of having votes in the nomination of those who fill them.

[106] Pinckney furnished Madison with a copy of this speech which he transcribed, but apparently not with the whole of it, as Madison's note at the end indicates. The original Pinckney draft is among the Madison papers, and shows Madison's copying to have been accurate.

If this State of things is true & the prospect of its continuing probable, it is perhaps not politic to endeavour too close an imitation of a Government calculated for a people whose situation is, & whose views ought to be extremely different.

Much has been said of the Constitution of G. Britain. I will confess that I believe it to be the best Constitution in existence; but at the same time I am confident it is one that will not or cannot be introduced into this Country, for many centuries.--If it were proper to go here into a historical dissertation on the British Constitution, it might easily be shewn that the peculiar excellence, the distinguishing feature of that Governm^t cannot possibly be introduced into our System--that its balance between the Crown & the people cannot be made a part of our Constitution,--that we neither have nor can have the members to compose it, nor the rights, privileges & properties of so distinct a class of Citizens to guard,--that the materials for forming this balance or check do not exist, nor is there a necessity for having so permanent a part of our Legislative, until the Executive power is so constituted as to have something fixed & dangerous in its principle--By this I mean a sole, hereditary, though limited Executive.

That we cannot have a proper body for forming a Legislative balance between the inordinate power of the Executive and the people, is evident from a review of the accidents & circumstances which gave rise to the peerage of Great Britain--I believe it is well ascertained that the parts which compose the British Constitution arose immediately from the forests of Germany; but the antiquity of the establishment of Nobility is by no means clearly defined. Some authors are of opinion that the dignity denoted by the titles of dux et comes, was derived from the old Roman to the German Empire; while others are of the opinion that they existed among the Germans long before the Romans were acquainted with them. The institution however of Nobility is immemorial among the Nations who may properly be termed the ancestors of Britain.--At the time they were summoned in England to become a part of the National Council, the circumstances which contributed to make them a Constituent part of that constitution, must be well known to all gentlemen who have had industry & curiosity enough to investigate the subject--The Nobles with their possessions & dependents composed a body permanent in their nature and formidable in point of power. They had a distinct interest both from the King and the people; an interest which could only be represented by themselves, and the guardianship could not be safely intrusted to others.--At the time they were originally called to form a part of the National Council, necessity perhaps as much as other cause, induced the Monarch to look up to them. It was necessary to demand the aid of his subjects in personal & pecuniary services. The power and possessions of the Nobility would not permit taxation from any Assembly of which they were not a part: & the blending the Deputies of the Commons with them, & thus forming what they called their parlerment was perhaps as much the effect of chance as of any thing else. The Commons were at that time compleatly subordinate to the nobles, whose consequence & influence seem to have been the only reasons for their superiority; a superiority so degrading to the Commons that in the first summons we find the peers are called upon to consult the commons to consent. From this time the peers have composed a part of the British Legislature, and notwithstanding their power and influence have diminished & those of the Commons have increased, yet still they have always formed an excellent balance ag^{st} either the encroachments of the Crown or the people.

I have said that such a body cannot exist in this Country for ages, and that untill the situation of our people is exceedingly changed no necessity will exist for so permanent a part of the Legislature. To illustrate this I have remarked that the people of the United States are more equal in their circumstances than the people of any other Country--that they have very few rich men among them,--by rich men I mean those whose riches may have a dangerous influence, or such as are esteemed rich in Europe--perhaps there are not one hundred such on the Continent; that it is not probable this number will be greatly increased; that the genius of the people their mediocrity of situation & the prospects which are afforded their industry in a Country which must be a new one for centuries are unfavorable to the rapid distinction of ranks. The destruction of the right of primogeniture & the equal division of the property of Intestates will also have an effect to preserve this mediocrity; for laws invariably affect the manners of a people. On the other hand that vast extent of unpeopled territory which opens to the frugal & industrious a sure road to competency & independence will effectually prevent for a considerable time the increase of the poor or discontented, and be the means of preserving that equality of condition which so eminently distinguishes us.

If equality is as I contend the leading feature of the U. States, where then are the riches & wealth whose representation & protection is the peculiar province of this Permanent body. Are they in the hands of the few who may be called rich; in the possession of less than a hundred citizens? Certainly not. They are in the great body of the people, among whom there are no men of wealth, and very few of real poverty.--Is it probable that a change will be created, and that a new order of men will arise? If under the British Government, for a century no such change was probable, I think it may be fairly concluded it will not take place while even the semblance of Republicanism remains.--How is this change to be effected? Where are the sources from whence it is to flow? From the landed interest? No. That is too unproductive & too much divided in most of the States. From the Monied interest? If such exists at present, little is to be apprehended from that source. Is it to spring from commerce? I believe it would be the first instance in which a nobility sprang from merchants. Besides, Sir, I apprehend that on this point the policy of the U. States has been much mistaken. We have unwisely considered ourselves as the inhabitants of an old instead of a new country. We have adopted the maxims of a State full of people & manufactures & established in credit. We have deserted our true interest, and instead of applying closely to those improvements in domestic policy which would have ensured the future importance of our commerce, we have rashly & prematurely engaged in schemes as extensive as they are imprudent. This however is an error which daily corrects itself & I have no doubt that a few more severe trials will convince us, that very different commercial principles ought to govern the conduct of these States.

The people of this Country are not only very different from the inhabitants of any State we are acquainted with in the modern world; but I assert that their situation is distinct from either the people of Greece or Rome, or of any State we are acquainted with among the antients.--Can the orders introduced by the institution of Solon, can they be found in the United States? Can the military habits & manners of Sparta be resembled to our habits & manners? Are the distinction of Patrician & Plebeian known among us? Can the Helvetic or Belgic confederacies, or can the unwieldy, unmeaning body called the Germanic Empire, can they be said to possess either the same or a situation like ours? I apprehend not.--They are perfectly different, in their distinctions of rank, their Constitutions, their manners & their policy.

Our true situation appears to me to be this,--a new extensive Country containing within itself the materials for forming a Government capable of extending to its Citizens all the blessings of Civil & religious liberty--capable of making them happy at home. This is the great end of Republican Establishments. We mistake the object of our Government, if we hope or wish that it is to make us respectable abroad. Conquest or superiority among other powers is not or ought not ever to be the object of republican Systems. If they are sufficiently active & energetic to rescue us from contempt & preserve our domestic happiness & security, it is all we can expect from them,--it is more than almost any other Government ensures to its citizens.

I believe this observation will be found generally true:--that no two people are so exactly alike in their situation or circumstances as to admit the exercise of the same Government with equal benefit; that a system must be suited to the habits & genius of the People it is to govern, and must grow out of them.

The people of the U. S. may be divided into three classes--Professional men who must from their particular pursuits always have a considerable weight in the Government while it remains popular--Commercial men, who may or may not have weight as a wise or injudicious commercial policy is pursued.--If that commercial policy is pursued which I conceive to be the true one, the merchants of this Country will not or ought not for a considerable time to have much weight in the political scale.--The third is the landed interest, the owners and cultivators of the soil, who are and ought ever to be the governing spring in the system.--These three classes, however distinct in their pursuits are individually equal in the political scale, and may be easily proved to have but one interest. The dependence of each on the other is mutual. The merchant depends on the planter. Both must in private as well as public affairs be connected with the professional men; who in their turn must in some measure depend on them. Hence it is clear from this manifest connection, & the equality which I before stated exists, & must for the reasons then assign, continue, that after all there is one, but one great & equal body of Citizens composing the inhabitants of this Country among whom there are no distinctions of rank, and very few or none of fortune.

For a people thus circumstanced are we then to form a Government & the question is what sort of Government is best suited to them.

Will it be the British Gov^t? No. Why? Because G. Britain contains three orders of people distinct in their situation, their possessions & their principles.--These orders combined form the great body of the Nation. And as in national expences the wealth of the whole community must contribute, so ought each component part to be properly & duly represented.--No other combination of power could form this due representation, but the one that exists.--Neither the peers or the people could represent the royalty, nor could the Royalty & the people form a proper representation for the Peers.--Each therefore must of necessity be represented by itself, or the sign of itself; and this accidental mixture has certainly formed a Government admirably well balanced.

But the U. States contain but one order that can be assimilated to the British Nation,--this is the order of Commons. They will not surely then attempt to form a Government consisting of three branches, two of which shall have nothing to represent. They will not have an Executive & Senate (hereditary) because the King & Lords of England are so. The same reasons do not exist and therefore the same provisions are not necessary.

We must as has been observed suit our Governm^t to the people it is to direct. These are I believe as active, intelligent & susceptible of good Governm^t as any people in the world. The Confusion which has produced the present relaxed State is not owing to them. It is owing to the weakness & (defects) of a Gov^t incapable of combining the various interests it is intended to unite, and destitute of energy.--All that we have to do then is to distribute the powers of Gov^t in such a manner, and for such limited periods, as while it gives a proper degree of permanency to the Magistrate, will reserve to the people, the right of election they will not or ought not frequently to part with.--I am of opinion that this may easily be done; and that with some amendments the propositions before the Committee will fully answer this end.

No position appears to me more true than this; that the General Gov^t cannot effectually exist without reserving to the States the possession of their local rights. They are the instruments upon which the Union must frequently depend for the support & execution of their powers, however immediately operating upon the people, and not upon the States.

Much has been said about the propriety of abolishing the distinction of State Governments, & having but one general System. Suffer me for a moment to examine this question.[107]

[107] The residue of this speech was not furnished, like the above, by Mr. Pinckney.--Madison's Note.

Yates' report of the speech is meagre. The closing paragraph, apparently the part lacking in Madison's report, is:

"While we were dependent on the crown of Great Britain, it was in contemplation to form the whole into one; but it was found impracticable. No legislature could make good laws for the whole, nor can it now be done. It would necessarily place the power in the hands of the few nearest the seat of government. State governments must therefore remain, if you mean to prevent confusion. The general negative powers will support the general government. Upon these considerations, I am led to form the second branch differently from the report. These powers are important, and the number not too large, upon the principle of proportion. I have considered the subject with great attention; and I propose this plan (reads it), and if no better plan is proposed, I will then move its adoption."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 163.

The mode of constituting the 2^d branch being under consideration.

The word "national" was struck out, and "United States" inserted.

M^r Ghorum, inclined to a compromise as to the rule of proportion. He thought there was some weight in the objections of the small States. If V^a should have 16. votes & Del^{re} with several other States together 16, those from Virg^a would be more likely to unite than the others, and would therefore have an undue influence. This remark was applicable not only to States, but to Counties or other districts of the same State. Accordingly the Constitution of Mass^{ts} had provided that the representatives of the larger districts should not be in an exact ratio to their numbers, and experience he thought had shewn the provision to be expedient.

M^r Read. The States have heretofore been in a sort of partnership. They ought to adjust their old affairs before they open a new account. He brought into view the appropriation of the co[~m]on interest in the Western lands, to the use of particular States. Let justice be done on this head; let the fund be applied fairly & equally to the discharge of the general debt, and the smaller States who had been injured; would listen then perhaps to those ideas of just representation which had been held out.

M^r Ghorum, did not see how the Convention could interpose in the case. Errors he allowed had been committed on the subject. But Cong^s were now using their endeavours to rectify them. The best remedy would be such a Government as would have vigor enough to do justice throughout. This was certainly the best chance that could be afforded to the smaller States.

M^r Wilson, the question is shall the members of the 2^d branch be chosen by the Legislatures of the States? When he considered the amazing extent of Country--the immense population which is to fill it, the influence which the Gov^t we are to form will have, not only on the present generation of our people & their multiplied posterity, but on the whole Globe, he was lost in the magnitude of the object. The project of Henry the 4^{th} & his Statesmen was but the picture in miniature of the great portrait to be exhibited. He was opposed to an election by the State Legislatures. In explaining his reasons it was necessary to observe the twofold relation in which the people would stand, 1. as Citizens of the Gen^l Gov^t 2. as Citizens of their particular State. The Gen^l Gov^t was meant for them in the first capacity: the State Gov^{ts} in the second. Both Gov^{ts} were derived from the people--both meant for the people--both therefore ought to be regulated on the same principles. The same train of ideas which belonged to the relation of the Citizens to their State Gov^{ts} were applicable to their relation to the Gen^l Gov^t and in forming the latter, we ought to proceed, by abstracting as much as possible from the idea of the State Gov^{ts}. With respect to the province & object of the Gen^l Gov^t they should be considered as having no existence. The election of the 2^d branch by the Legislatures, will introduce & cherish local interests & local prejudices. The Gen^l Gov^t is not an assemblage of States, but of individuals for certain political purposes--it is not meant for the States, but for the individuals composing them; the individuals therefore not the States, ought to be represented in it: A proportion in this representation can be preserved in the 2^d as well as in the 1^{st} branch; and the election can be made by electors chosen by the people for that purpose. He moved an amendment to that effect which was not seconded.

M^r Elseworth saw no reason for departing from the mode contained in the Report. Whoever chooses the member, he will be a Citizen of the State he is to represent & will feel the same spirit & act the same part whether he be appointed by the people or the Legislature. Every State has its particular views & prejudices, which will find their way into the general Councils, through whatever channel they may flow. Wisdom was one of the characteristics which it was in contemplation to give the second branch. Would not more of it issue from the Legislatures; than from an immediate election by the people. He urged the necessity of maintaining the existence, & agency of the States. Without their co-operation it would be impossible to support a Republican Gov^t over so great an extent of Country. An army could scarcely render it practicable. The largest States are the worst Governed. Virg^a is obliged to acknowledge her incapacity to extend her Gov^t to Kentuckey. Mass^{ts} cannot keep the peace one hundred miles from her capitol and is now forming an army for its support. How long Pen^a may be free from a like situation cannot be foreseen. If the principles & materials of our Gov^t are not adequate to the extent of these single States; how can it be imagined that they can support a single Gov^t throughout the U. States. The only chance of supporting a Gen^l Gov^t lies in grafting it on that of the individual States.

Doc^r Johnson urged the necessity of preserving the State Gov^{ts} which would be at the mercy of the Gen^l Gov^t on M^r Wilson's plan.

M^r Madison thought it w^d obviate difficulty if the present resol: were postponed, & the 8{th} taken up, which is to fix the right of suffrage in the 2^d branch.

Doc^r Williamson professed himself a friend to such a system as would secure the existence of the State Gov^{ts}. The happiness of the people depended on it. He was at a loss to give his vote as to the Senate untill he knew the number of its members. In order to ascertain this, he moved to insert these words after "2^d branch of the Nat^l Legislature"--"who shall bear such proportion to the n^o of the 1^{st} branch as 1 to ----." He was not seconded.

M^r Mason. It has been agreed on all hands that an efficient Gov^t is necessary that to render it such it ought to have the faculty of self defence, that to render its different branches effectual each of them ought to have the same power of self defence. He did not wonder that such an agreement should have prevailed in these points. He only wondered that there should be any disagreement about the necessity of allowing the State Gov^{ts} the same self-defence. If they are to be preserved as he conceived to be essential, they certainly ought to have this power. And the only mode left of giving it to them, was by allowing them to appoint the 2^d branch of the Nat^l Legislature.

M^r Butler observing that we were put to difficulties at every step by the uncertainty whether an equality or a ratio of representation w^d prevail finally in the 2^d branch, moved to postpone the 4^{th} Resol: & to proceed to the Resol: on that point. M^r Madison seconded him.

On the question

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M{d.} no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On a question to postpone the 4 and take up the 7 Resol: ays, Mary^d V^a N. C. S. C. Geo;--Noes, Mass. C^t N. Y. N. J. P^a Del:

On the question to agree "that the members of the 2^d branch be chosen by the indiv^l Legislatures" Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.[108]

[108] Madison's Note:

It must be kept in view that the largest States particularly Pennsylvania & Virginia always considered the choice of the 2^d Branch by the State Legislatures as opposed to a proportional representation to which they were attached as a fundamental principle of just Government. The smaller States who had opposite views, were reinforced by the members from the large States most anxious to secure the importance of the State Governments.

On a question on the clause requiring the age of 30 years at least,--it was agreed to unanimously:

On a question to strike out the words, "sufficient to ensure their independency" after the word "term" it was agreed to.

That the 2^d branch hold their offices for a term of seven years, considered.

M^r Ghorum suggests a term of "4 years," 1/4 to be elected every year.

M^r Randolph, supported the idea of rotation, as favorable to the wisdom & stability of the Corps, which might possibly be always sitting, and aiding the Executive.

And moves after "7 years," to add, "to go out in fixt proportion" which was agreed to.

M^r Williamson suggests "6 years," as more convenient for Rotation than 7 years.

M^r Sherman seconds him.

M^r Reed proposed that they s^d hold their offices "during good behaviour." Mr. R. Morris seconds him.

Gen^l Pinkney, proposed "4 years." A longer term w^d fix them at the seat of Gov^t. They w^d acquire an interest there, perhaps transfer their property & lose sight of the States they represent. Under these circumstances the distant States w^d labour under great disadvantages.[109]

[109] According to Yates, Madison followed Pinckney: "Mr. Madison. We are proceeding in the same manner that was done when the Confederation was first formed. Its original draft was excellent, but in its progress and completion it became so insufficient as to give rise to the present Convention. By the vote already taken, will not the temper of the state legislatures transfuse itself into the Senate? Do we create a free government?"--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 168.

M^r Sherman moved to strike out "7 years" in order to take questions on the several propositions.

On the question to strike out "seven"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question to insert "6 years", which failed 5 St^s being ay. 5 no, & 1 divided

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On a motion to adjourn, the votes were 5 for 5 ag^{st} it & 1 divided,--Con. N. J. P^a Del. V^a ay. Mass^{ts} N. Y. N. C. S. C. Geo: no. Mary^d divided.

On the question for "5 years" it was lost.

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Adj^d.

TUESDAY, JUNE 26. IN CONVENTION

The duration of the 2^d branch under consideration.

M^r Ghorum moved to fill the blank with "six years," one third of the members to go out every second year.

M^r Wilson 2^{ded} the motion.

Gen^l Pinkney opposed six years in favor of four years. The States he said had different interests. Those of the Southern, and of S. Carolina in particular were different from the Northern. If the Senators should be appointed for a long term, they w^d settle in the State where they exercised their functions; and would in a little time be rather the representatives of that than of the State appoint^g them.

M^r Reed mov^d that the term be nine years. This w^d admit of a very convenient rotation, one third going out triennially. He w^d still prefer "during good behaviour," but being little supported in that idea, he was willing to take the longest term that could be obtained.

M^r Broome 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Madison. In order to judge of the form to be given to this institution, it will be proper to take a view of the ends to be served by it. These were first to protect the people ag^{st} their rulers; secondly to protect the people ag^{st} the transient impressions into which they themselves might be led. A people deliberating in a temperate moment, and with the experience of other nations before them, on the plan of Gov^t most likely to secure their happiness, would first be aware, that those charg^d with the public happiness might betray their trust. An obvious precaution ag^{st} this danger w^d be to divide the trust between different bodies of men, who might watch & check each other. In this they w^d be governed by the same prudence which has prevailed in organizing the subordinate departments of Gov^t, where all business liable to abuses is made to pass thro' separate hands, the one being a check on the other. It w^d next occur to such people, that they themselves were liable to temporary errors, thro' want of information as to their true interest, and that men chosen for a short term, & employed but a small portion of that in public affairs, might err from the same cause. This reflection w^d naturally suggest that the Gov^t be so constituted as that one of its branches might have an opp^y of acquiring a competent knowledge of the public interests. Another reflection equally becoming a people on such an occasion, w^d be that they themselves, as well as a numerous body of Representatives, were liable to err also, from fickleness and passion. A necessary fence ag^{st} this danger would be to select a portion of enlightened citizens, whose limited number, and firmness might seasonably interpose ag^{st} impetuous councils. It ought finally to occur to a people deliberating on a Gov^t for themselves, that as different interests necessarily result from the liberty meant to be secured, the major interest might under sudden impulses be tempted to commit injustice on the minority. In all civilized Countries the people fall into different classes hav^g a real or supposed difference of interests. There will be creditors & debtors; farmers, merch^{ts} & manufacturers. There will be particularly the distinction of rich & poor. It was true as had been observ^d (by M^r Pinkney) we had not among us those hereditary distinctions, of rank which were a great source of the contests in the ancient Gov^{ts} as well as the modern States of Europe, nor those extremes of wealth or poverty which characterize the latter. We cannot however be regarded even at this time, as one homogeneous mass, in which every thing that affects a part will affect in the same manner the whole. In framing a system which we wish to last for ages, we sh^d not lose sight of the changes which ages will produce. An increase of population will of necessity increase the proportion of those who will labour under all the hardships of life, & secretly sigh for a more equal distribution of its blessings. These may in time outnumber those who are placed above the feelings of indigence. According to the equal laws of suffrage, the power will slide into the hands of the former. No agrarian attempts have yet been made in this Country, but symptoms, of a levelling spirit, as we have understood, have sufficiently appeared in certain quarters, to give notice of the future danger. How is this danger to be guarded ag^{st} on the republican principles? How is the danger in all cases of interested coalitions to oppress the minority to be guarded ag^{st}? Among other means by the establishment of a body in the Gov^t sufficiently respectable for its wisdom & virtue, to aid on such emergencies, the preponderance of justice by throwing its weight into that scale. Such being the objects of the second branch in the proposed Gov^t he thought a considerable duration ought to be given to it. He did not conceive that the term of nine years could threaten any real danger; but in pursuing his particular ideas on the subject, he should require that the long term allowed to the 2^d branch should not commence till such a period of life, as would render a perpetual disqualification to be re-elected little inconvenient either in a public or private view. He observed that as it was more than probable we were now digesting a plan which in its operation w^d decide for ever the fate of Republican Gov^t we ought not only to provide every guard to liberty that its preservation c^d require, but be equally careful to supply the defects which our own experience had particularly pointed out.

M^r Sherman. Gov^t is instituted for those who live under it. It ought therefore to be so constituted as not to be dangerous to their liberties. The more permanency it has the worse if it be a bad Gov^t. Frequent elections are necessary to preserve the good behavior of rulers. They also tend to give permanency to the Government, by preserving that good behavior, because it ensures their re-election. In Connecticut elections have been very frequent, yet great stability & uniformity both as to persons & measures have been experienced from its original establishm^t to the present time; a period of more than a 130 years. He wished to have provision made for steadiness & wisdom in the system to be adopted; but he thought six or four years would be sufficient. He sh^d be content with either.

M^r Read wished it to be considered by the small States that it was their interest that we should become one people as much as possible; that State attachments sh^d be extinguished as much as possible; that the Senate, sh^d be so constituted as to have the feelings of Citizens of the whole.

M^r Hamilton. He did not mean to enter particularly into the subject. He concurred with M^r Madison in thinking we were now to decide forever the fate of Republican Government; and that if we did not give to that form due stability and wisdom, it would be disgraced & lost among ourselves, disgraced & lost to mankind forever. He acknowledged himself not to think favorably of Republican Government; but addressed his remarks to those who did think favorably of it, in order to prevail on them to tone their Government as high as possible. He professed himself to be as zealous an advocate for liberty as any man whatever, and trusted he should be as willing a martyr to it though he differed as to the form in which it was most eligible.--He concurred also in the general observations of (M^r Madison) on the subject, which might be supported by others if it were necessary. It was certainly true that nothing like an equality of property existed; that an inequality would exist as long as liberty existed, and that it would unavoidably result from that very liberty itself. This inequality of property constituted the great & fundamental distinction in Society. When the Tribunitial power had levelled the boundary between the patricians & plebeians, what followed? The distinction between rich & poor was substituted. He meant not however to enlarge on the subject. He rose principally to remark that (M^r Sherman) seemed not to recollect that one branch of the proposed Gov^t was so formed, as to render it particularly the guardians of the poorer orders of Citizens; nor to have adverted to the true causes of the stability which had been exemplified in Con^t. Under the British system as well as the federal, many of the great powers appertaining to Gov^t particularly all those relating to foreign Nations were not in the hands of the Gov^t there. Their internal affairs also were extremely simple, owing to sundry causes many of which were peculiar to that Country. Of late the Governm^t had entirely given way to the people, and had in fact suspended many of its ordinary functions in order to prevent those turbulent scenes which had appeared elsewhere. He asks M^r S. whether the State at this time dare impose & collect a tax on y^e people? To these causes & not to the frequency of elections, the effect as far as it existed ought to be chiefly ascribed.

M^r Gerry, wished we could be united in our ideas concerning a permanent Gov^t. All aim at the same end, but there are great differences as to the means. One circumstance He thought should be carefully attended to. There was not 1/1000 part of our fellow citizens who were not ag^{st} every approach towards Monarchy. Will they ever agree to a plan which seems to make such an approach. The Convention ought to be extremely cautious in what they hold out to the people. Whatever plan may be proposed will be espoused with warmth by many out of respect to the quarter it proceeds from as well as from an approbation of the plan itself. And if the plan should be of such a nature as to rouse a violent opposition, it is easy to foresee that discord & confusion will ensue, and it is even possible that we may become a prey to foreign powers. He did not deny the position of M^r Madison, that the majority will generally violate justice when they have an interest in so doing: But did not think there was any such temptation in this Country. Our situation was different from that of G. Britain; and the great body of lands yet to be parcelled out & settled would very much prolong the difference. Notwithstanding the symptoms of injustice which had marked many of our public Councils, they had not proceeded so far as not to leave hopes, that there would be a sufficient sense of justice & virtue for the purpose of Gov^t. He admitted the evils arising from a frequency of elections; and would agree to give the Senate a duration of four or five years. A longer term would defeat itself. It never would be adopted by the people.

M^r Wilson did not mean to repeat what had fallen from others, but w^d add an observation or two which he believed had not yet been suggested. Every nation may be regarded in two relations 1 to its own citizens. 2 to foreign nations. It is therefore not only liable to anarchy & tyranny within, but has wars to avoid & treaties to obtain from abroad. The Senate will probably be the depository of the powers concerning the latter objects. It ought therefore to be made respectable in the eyes of foreign Nations. The true reason why G. Britain has not yet listened to a commercial treaty with us has been, because she had no confidence in the stability or efficacy of our Government. 9 years with a rotation, will provide these desirable qualities; and give our Gov^t an advantage in this respect over Monarchy itself. In a Monarchy much must always depend on the temper of the man. In such a body, the personal character will be lost in the political. He w^d add another observation. The popular objection ag^{st} appointing any public body for a long term was that it might by gradual encroachments prolong itself first into a body for life, and finally become a hereditary one. It would be a satisfactory answer to this objection that as 1/3 would go out triennially, there would be always three divisions holding their places for unequal times, and consequently acting under the influence of different views, and different impulses.--On the question for 9 years, 1/3 to go out triennially,

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t, no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question for 6 years,[110] 1/3 to go out biennially

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

[110] Yates has the question on five years, but this is obviously a mistake.--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 172.

"To receive fixt stipends by which they may be compensated for their services" considered.

General Pinkney proposed "that no Salary should be allowed." As this (the Senatorial) branch was meant to represent the wealth of the Country, it ought to be composed of persons of wealth; and if no allowance was to be made the wealthy alone would undertake the service. He moved to strike out the clause.

Doct^r Franklin seconded the motion. He wished the Convention to stand fair with the people. There were in it a number of young men who would probably be of the Senate. If lucrative appointments should be recommended we might be chargeable with having carved out places for ourselves. On the question,--Mas^{ts} Connecticut[111] P^a M^d S. Carolina ay. N. Y. N. J. Del. Virg^a N. C. Geo. no.

[111] Quer. whether Connecticut should not be, no. & Delaware, ay.--Madison's Note.

M^r Williamson moved to change the expression into these words to wit "to receive a compensation for the devotion of their time to the public service." The motion was seconded by M^r Elseworth, and agreed to by all the States except S. Carol^a. It seemed to be meant only to get rid of the word "fixt" and leave greater room for modifying the provision on this point.

M^r Elseworth moved to strike out "to be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury" and insert "to be paid by their respective States." If the Senate was meant to strengthen the Gov^t it ought to have the confidence of the States. The States will have an interest in keeping up a representation, and will make such provision for supporting the members as will ensure their attendance.

M^r Madison considered this as a departure from a fundamental principle, and subverting the end intended by allowing the Senate a duration of 6 years. They would if this motion should be agreed to, hold their places during pleasure; during the pleasure of the State Legislatures. One great end of the institution was, that being a firm, wise and impartial body, it might not only give stability to the Gen^l Gov^t in its operations on individuals, but hold an even balance among different States. The motion would make the Senate like Congress, the mere Agents & Advocates of State interests & views, instead of being the impartial umpires & Guardians of justice and the general Good. Cong^s had lately by the establishment of a board with full powers to decide on the mutual claims between the U. States & the individual States, fairly acknowledged themselves to be unfit for discharging this part of the business referred to them by the Confederation.

M^r Dayton[112] considered the payment of the Senate by the States as fatal to their independence, he was decided for paying them out of the Nat^l Treasury.

[112] "Cap. Dayton is a young Gentleman of talents, with ambition to exert them. He possesses a good education and some reading; he speaks well, and seems desirous of improving himself in Oratory. There is an impetuosity in his temper that is injurious to him; but there is an honest rectitude about him that makes him a valuable Member of Society, and secures to him the esteem of all good Men. He is about 30 years old, served with me a Brother Aid to General Sullivan in the Western Expedition of '79."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 328.

On the question for payment of the Senate to be left to the States as moved by M^r Elseworth.

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Col. Mason. He did not rise to make any motion, but to hint an idea which seemed to be proper for consideration. One important object in constituting the Senate was to secure the rights of property. To give them weight & firmness for this purpose, a considerable duration in office was thought necess[~a]y. But a longer term than 6 years, would be of no avail in this respect, if needy persons should be appointed. He suggested therefore the propriety of annexing to the office a qualification of property. He thought this would be very practicable; as the rules of taxation would supply a scale for measuring the degree of wealth possessed by every man.

A question was then taken whether the words "to be paid out of the public treasury," should stand.

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Butler moved to strike out the ineligibility of Senators to State offices.

Mr. Williamson seconded the motion.[113]

[113] According to Yates, before Wilson spoke:

"Mr. Madison. Congress heretofore depended on state interests; we are now going to pursue the same plan."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 173.

M^r Wilson remarked the additional dependance this w^d create in the Senators on the States. The longer the time he observed allotted to the Officer, the more compleat will be the dependance if it exists at all.[114]

[114] After Wilson, according to Yates:

"Mr. Butler. This second branch I consider as the aristocratic part of our government; and they must be controlled by the states, or they will be too independent."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 173.

Gen^l Pinkney was for making the States as much as could be conveniently done, a part of the Gen^l Gov^t. If the Senate was to be appointed by the States, it ought in pursuance of the same idea to be paid by the States: and the States ought not to be barred from the opportunity of calling members of it into offices at home. Such a restriction would also discourage the ablest men from going into the Senate.

M^r Williamson moved a resolution so penned as to admit of the two following questions. 1. whether the members of the Senate should be ineligible to & incapable of holding offices under the U. States

2. Whether &c. under the particular States.

On the Question to postpone in order to consider Williamson's Resol^n Mas^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry & M^r Madison move to add to M^r Williamson's 1. Quest: "and for 1 year thereafter." On this amend^t

Mas^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On M^r Will[iam]son's 1 Question as amend^{ed} vz, inelig: & incapable &c. &c. for 1 year &c. ag^d to un[~a]mously.

On the 2. question as to ineligibility &c. to State offices,

Mass. ay. C^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The 5. Resol: "that each branch have the right of originating acts," was agreed to nem. con.

Adj^d.

WEDNESDAY JUNE 27. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Rutlidge moved to postpone the 6^{th} Resolution, defining the powers of Cong^s in order to take up the 7 & 8 which involved the most fundamental points; the rules of suffrage in the 2 branches which was agreed to nem. con.

A question being proposed on the Resol: 7; declaring that the suffrage in the first branch sh^d be according to an equitable ratio.

M^r L. Martin[115] contended at great length and with great eagerness that the General Gov^t was meant merely to preserve the State Govern^{ts} not to govern individuals: that its powers ought to be kept within narrow limits: that if too little power was given to it, more might be added; but that if too much, it could never be resumed: that individuals as such have little to do but with their own States; that the Gen^l Gov^t has no more to apprehend from the States composing the Union, while it pursues proper measures, that Gov^t over individuals has to apprehend from its subjects: that to resort to the Citizens at large for their sanction to a new Govern^t will be throwing them back into a state of Nature; that the dissolution of the State Gov^{ts} is involved in the nature of the process; that the people have no right to do this without the consent of those to whom they have delegated their power for State purposes: through their tongues only they can speak, through their ears, only can hear: that the States have shewn a good disposition to comply with the Acts of Cong^s, weak, contemptibly weak as that body has been; and have failed through inability alone to comply: that the heaviness of the private debts, and the waste of property during the war, were the chief causes of this inability; that he did not conceive the instances mentioned by M^r Madison of compacts between V^a & M^d between P^a & N. J. or of troops raised by Mass^{ts} for defence against the Rebels, to be violations of the articles of confederation--that an equal vote in each State was essential to the federal idea, and was founded in justice & freedom, not merely in policy: that tho' the States may give up this right of sovereignty, yet they had not, and ought not: that the States like individuals were in a State of nature equally sovereign & free. In order to prove that individuals in a State of Nature are equally free & independent he read passages from Locke, Vattel, Lord Summers--Priestly. To prove that the case is the same with States till they surrender their equal sovereignty, he read other passages in Locke & Vattel, and also Rutherford: that the States being equal cannot treat or confederate so as to give up an equality of votes without giving up their liberty: that the propositions on the table were a system of slavery for 10 States: that as V^a Mass^{ts} & P^a have 42/90 of the votes they can do as they please without a miraculous Union of the other ten: that they will have nothing to do, but to gain over one of the ten to make them compleat masters of the rest; that they can then appoint an Execut^e & Judiciary & legislate for them as they please: that there was & would continue a natural predilection & partiality in men for their own States; that the States, particularly the smaller, would never allow a negative to be exercised over their laws: that no State in Ratifying the Confederation had objected to the equality of votes; that the complaints at present run not ag^{st} this equality but the want of power: that 16 members from V^a would be more likely to act in concert than a like number formed of members from different States: that instead of a junction of the small States as a remedy, he thought a division of the large States would be more eligible.--This was the substance of a speech which was continued more than three hours. He was too much exhausted he said to finish his remarks, and reminded the House that he should tomorrow, resume them.

[115] "Mr. Martin, the Attorney-General from Maryland, spoke on this subject upwards of three hours. As his arguments were too diffuse, and in many instances desultory, it was not possible to trace him through the whole, or to methodize his ideas into a systematic or argumentative arrangement."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 174.

Adj^d.

THURSDAY JUNE 28TH. IN CONVENTION

M^r L. Martin resumed his discourse,[116] contending that the Gen^l Gov^t ought to be formed for the States, not for individuals: that if the States were to have votes in proportion to their numbers of people, it would be the same thing whether their representatives were chosen by the Legislatures or the people; the smaller States would be equally enslaved; that if the large States have the same interest with the smaller as was urged, there could be no danger in giving them an equal vote; they would not injure themselves, and they could not injure the large ones on that supposition without injuring themselves and if the interests, were not the same, the inequality of suffrage w^d be dangerous to the smaller States: that it will be in vain to propose any plan offensive to the rulers of the States, whose influence over the people will certainly prevent their adopting it: that the large States were weak at present in proportion to their extent; & could only be made formidable to the small ones, by the weight of their votes: that in case a dissolution of the Union should take place, the small States would have nothing to fear from their power; that if in such a case the three great States should league themselves together, the other ten could do so too; & that he had rather see partial Confederacies take place, than the plan on the table. This was the substance of the residue of his discourse which was delivered with much diffuseness & considerable vehemence.

[116] Yates gives Martin's speech more fully:

"On federal grounds, it is said, that a minority will govern a majority--but on the Virginia plan a minority would tax a majority. In a federal government, a majority of states must and ought to tax. In the local government of states, counties may be unequal--still numbers, not property, govern. What is the government now forming, over states or persons? As to the latter, their rights cannot be the object of a general government. These are already secured by their guardians, the state governments. The general government is therefore intended only to protect and guard the rights of the states as states.

"This general government, I believe, is the first upon earth which gives checks against democracies or aristocracies. The only necessary check in a general government ought to be a restraint to prevent its absorbing the powers of the state governments. Representation on federal principles can only flow from state societies. Representation and taxation are ever inseparable--not according to the quantum of property, but the quantum of freedom.

"Will the representatives of a state forget state interests? The mode of election cannot change it. These prejudices cannot be eradicated--Your general government cannot be just or equal upon the Virginia plan, unless you abolish state interests. If this cannot be done, you must go back to principles purely federal.

"On this latter ground, the state legislatures and their constituents will have no interests to pursue different from the general government, and both will be interested to support each other. Under these ideas can it be expected that the people can approve the Virginia plan? But it is said, the people, not the state legislatures, will be called upon for approbation--with an evident design to separate the interests of the governors from the governed. What must be the consequence? Anarchy and confusion. We lose the ideas of the powers with which we are intrusted. The legislatures must approve. By them it must, on your own plan, be laid before the people. How will such a government, over so many great states, operate. Wherever new settlements have been formed in large states, they immediately want to shake off their independency. Why? Because the government is too remote for their good. The people want it nearer home.

"The basis of all ancient and modern confederacies is the freedom and the independency of the states composing it. The states forming the amphictionic council were equal, though Lacedemon, one of the greatest states, attempted the exclusion of three of the lesser states from this right. The plan reported, it is true, only intends to diminish those rights, not to annihilate them--It was the ambition and power of the great Grecian states which at last ruined this respectable council. The states as societies are ever respectful. Has Holland or Switzerland ever complained of the equality of the states which compose their respective confederacies? Bern and Zurich are larger than the remaining eleven cantons--so of many of the states of Germany; and yet their governments are not complained of. Bern alone might usurp the whole power of the Helvetic confederacy, but she is contented still with being equal.

"The admission of the larger states into the confederation, on the principle of equality, is dangerous--But on the Virginia system it is ruinous and destructive. Still it is the true interest of all the states to confederate--It is their joint efforts which must protect and secure us from foreign danger, and give us peace and harmony at home.

"(Here Mr. Martin entered into a detail of the comparative powers of each state, and stated their probable weakness and strength.)

"At the beginning of our troubles with Great Britain, the smaller states were attempted to be cajoled to submit to the views of that nation, lest the larger states should usurp their rights. We then answered them--your present plan is slavery, which on the remote prospect of a distant evil, we will not submit to.

"I would rather confederate with any single state, than submit to the Virginia plan. But we are already confederated, and no power on earth can dissolve it but by the consent of all the contracting powers--and four states, on this floor, have already declared their opposition to annihilate it. Is the old confederation dissolved, because some of the states wish a new confederation?"--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 177.

M^r Lansing & M^r Dayton moved to strike out "not," so that the 7 art. might read that the rights of suffrage in the 1^{st} branch ought to be according to the rule established by the Confederation."

M^r Dayton expressed great anxiety that the question might not be put till tomorrow; Govern^r Livingston being kept away by indisposition, and the representation of N. Jersey thereby suspended.

M^r Williamson, thought that if any political truth could be grounded on mathematical demonstration, it was that if the States were equally sovereign now, and parted with equal proportions of sovereignty, that they would remain equally sovereign. He could not comprehend how the smaller States would be injured in the case, and wished some Gentleman would vouchsafe a solution of it. He observed that the small States, if they had a plurality of votes would have an interest in throwing the burdens off their own shoulders on those of the large ones. He begged that the expected addition of new States from the Westward might be kept in view. They would be small States, they would be poor States, they would be unable to pay in proportion to their numbers; their distance from market rendering the produce of their labour less valuable; they would consequently be tempted to combine for the purpose of laying burdens on com[~m]erce & consumption which would fall with greatest weight on the old States.

M^r Madison, s^d he was much disposed to concur in any expedient not inconsistent with fundamental principles, that could remove the difficulty concerning the rule of representation. But he could neither be convinced that the rule contended for was just, nor necessary for the safety of the small States ag^{st} the large States. That it was not just, had been conceded by M^r Breerly & M^r Paterson themselves. The expedient proposed by them was a new partition of the territory of the U. States. The fallacy of the reasoning drawn from the equality of Sovereign States in the formation of compacts, lay in confounding together mere Treaties, in which were specified certain duties to which the parties were to be bound, and certain rules by which their subjects were to be reciprocally governed in their intercourse, with a compact by which an authority was created paramount to the parties, & making laws for the government of them. If France, England & Spain were to enter into a Treaty for the regulation of commerce &c. with the Prince of Monacho & 4 or 5 other of the smallest sovereigns of Europe, they would not hesitate to treat as equals, and to make the regulations perfectly reciprocal. W^d the case be the same, if a Council were to be formed of deputies from each with authority and discretion, to raise money, levy troops, determine the value of coin &c.? Would 30 or 40, million of people submit their fortunes into the hands of a few thousands? If they did it would only prove that they expected more from the terror of their superior force, than they feared from the selfishness of their feeble associates. Why are Counties of the Same States represented in proportion to their numbers? Is it because the representatives are chosen by the people themselves? So will be the representatives in the Nation^l Legislature. Is it because, the larger have more at stake than the smaller? The Case will be the same with the larger & smaller States. Is it because the laws are to operate immediately on their persons & properties? The same is the case in some degree as the articles of confederation stand; the same will be the case in a far greater degree, under the plan proposed to be substituted. In the cases of captures, of piracies, and of offences in a federal army, the property & persons of individuals depend on the laws of Cong^s. By the plan proposed a compleat power of taxation, the highest prerogative of supremacy is proposed to be vested in the National Gov^t. Many other powers are added which assimilate it to the Gov^t of individual States. The negative proposed on the State laws, will make it an essential branch of the State Legislatures & of course will require that it should be exercised by a body established on like principles with the other branches of those Legislatures.--That it is not necess[~a]y to secure the small States ag^{st} the large ones he conceived to be equally obvious: Was a combination of the large ones dreaded? This must arise either from some interest common to V^a Mass^{ts} & P^a & distinguishing them from the other States, or from the mere circumstance of similarity of size. Did any such common interest exist? In point of situation they could not have been more effectually separated from each other by the most jealous citizen of the most jealous State. In point of manners, Religion, and the other circumstances which sometimes beget affection between different communities, they were not more assimilated than the other States--In point of the staple productions they were as dissimilar as any three other States in the Union. The Staple of Mass^{ts} was fish, of P^a flower, of V^a Tob^o. Was a Combination to be apprehended from the mere circumstance of equality of size? Experience suggested no such danger. The journals of Cong^s did not present any peculiar association of these States in the votes recorded. It had never been seen that different Counties in the same State, conformable in extent, but disagreeing in other circumstances, betrayed a propensity to such combinations. Experience rather taught a contrary lesson. Among individuals of superior eminence & weight in Society, rivalships were much more frequent than coalitions. Among independent Nations, pre-eminent over their neighbours, the same remark was verified. Carthage & Rome tore one another to pieces instead of uniting their forces to devour the weaker nations of the Earth. The Houses of Austria & France were hostile as long as they remained the greatest powers of Europe. England & France have succeeded to the pre-eminence & to the enmity. To this principle we owe perhaps our liberty. A coalition between those powers would have been fatal to us. Among the principal members of antient & Modern confederacies, we find the same effect from the same cause. The contentions, not the Coalitions of Sparta, Athens & Thebes, proved fatal to the smaller members of the Amphyctionic Confederacy. The contentions, not the combinations of Prussia & Austria, have distracted & oppressed the German empire. Were the large States formidable singly to their smaller neighbours? On this supposition the latter ought to wish for such a General Gov^t as will operate with equal energy on the former as on themselves. The more lax the band, the more liberty the larger will have to avail themselves of their superior force. Here again Experience was an instructive monitor. What is y^e situation of the weak compared with the strong in those stages of civilization in which the violence of individuals is least controuled by an efficient Government? The Heroic period of Antient Greece, the feudal licentiousness of the middle ages of Europe, the existing condition of the American Savages, answer this question. What is the situation of the minor sovereigns in the great society of independent nations, in which the more powerful are under no controul but the nominal authority of the law of Nations? Is not the danger to the former exactly in proportion to their weakness. But there are cases still more in point. What was the condition of the weaker members of the Amphyctionic Confederacy. Plutarch (life of Themistocles) will inform us that it happened but too often that the strongest cities corrupted & awed the weaker, and that Judgment went in favor of the more powerful party. What is the condition of the lesser states in the German Confederacy? We all know that they are exceedingly trampled upon: and that they owe their safety as far as they enjoy it, partly to their enlisting themselves, under the rival banners of the pre-eminent members, partly to alliances with neighbouring Princes which the Constitution of the Empire does not prohibit. What is the state of things in the lax system of the Dutch Confederacy? Holland contains about 1/2 the People, supplies about 1/2 of the money, and by her influence, silently & indirectly governs the whole republic. In a word; the two extremes before us are a perfect separation & a perfect incorporation, of the 13 States. In the first case they would be independent nations subject to no law, but the law of nations. In the last, they would be mere counties of one entire republic, subject to one common law. In the first case the smaller States would have every thing to fear from the larger. In the last they would have nothing to fear. The true policy of the small States therefore lies in promoting those principles & that form of Gov^t which will most approximate the States to the condition of counties. Another consideration may be added. If the Gen^l Gov^t be feeble, the large States distrusting its continuance, and foreseeing that their importance & security may depend on their own size & strength, will never submit to a partition. Give to the Gen^l Gov^t sufficient energy & permanency, & you remove the objection. Gradual partitions of the large, & junctions of the small States will be facilitated, and time may effect that equalization, which is wished for by the small States now, but can never be accomplished at once.

M^r Wilson. The leading argument of those who contend for equality of votes among the States is that the States as such being equal, and being represented not as districts of individuals, but in their political & corporate capacities, are entitled to an equality of suffrage. According to this mode of reasoning the representation of the boroughs in Engl[~d] which has been allowed on all hands to be the rotten part of the Constitution, is perfectly right & proper. They are like the States represented in their corporate capacity like the States therefore they are entitled to equal voices, old Sarum to as many as London. And instead of the injury supposed hitherto to be done to London, the true ground of Complaint lies with old Sarum: for London instead of two which is her proper share, sends four representatives to Parliament.[117]

[117] According to King's Notes, Charles Pinckney spoke after Madison: "Charles Pinckney. The Honors & offices may become the objects of strong desire and of combination to acquire them. If Representatives be apportioned among the States in the Ratio of numbers, the Citizens will be free and equal but the States will be unequal, and their sovereignty will be degraded."--King's Life and Correspondence of Rufus King, i., 610.

M^r Sherman. The question is not what rights naturally belong to man; but how they may be most equally & effectually guarded in Society. And if some give up more than others in order to obtain this end, there can be no room for complaint. To do otherwise, to require an equal concession from all, if it would create danger to the rights of some, would be sacrificing the end to the means. The rich man who enters into Society along with the poor man, gives up more than the poor man, yet with an equal vote he is equally safe. Were he to have more votes than the poor man in proportion to his superior stake the rights of the poor man would immediately cease to be secure. This consideration prevailed when the articles of Confederation were formed.[118]

[118] According to Yates, Madison followed Sherman: "Mr. Madison. There is danger in the idea of the gentleman from Connecticut. Unjust representation will ever produce it. In the United Netherlands, Holland governs the whole, although she has only one vote. The counties in Virginia are exceedingly disproportionate, and yet the smaller has an equal vote with the greater, and no inconvenience arises."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 182.

The determination of the question from striking out the word "not" was put off till tomorrow at the request of the Deputies of N. York.

Doc^r Franklin. M^r President.

The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other--our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of Government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.

In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection.--Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move--that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that Service--

M^r Sherman seconded the motion.

M^r Hamilton & several others expressed their apprehensions that however proper such a resolution might have been at the beginning of the convention, it might at this late day, 1. bring on it some disagreeable animadversions, & 2. lead the public to believe that the embarrassments and dissensions within the Convention, had suggested this measure. It was answered by Doc^r F. M^r Sherman & others, that the past omission of a duty could not justify a further omission--that the rejection of such a proposition would expose the Convention to more unpleasant animadversions than the adoption of it: and that the alarm out of doors that might be excited for the state of things within, would at least be as likely to do good as ill.

M^r Williamson, observed that the true cause of the omission could not be mistaken. The Convention had no funds.

M^r Randolph proposed in order to give a favorable aspect to y^e measure, that a sermon be preached at the request of the convention on 4^{th} of July, the anniversary of Independence; & thenceforward prayers be used in y^e Convention every morning. D^r Frank^n 2^{ded} this motion. After several unsuccessful attempts for silently postponing this matter by adjourn^g the adjournment was at length carried, without any vote on the motion.

FRIDAY JUNE 29^{TH} IN CONVENTION.

Doc^r Johnson. The controversy must be endless whilst Gentlemen differ in the grounds of their arguments; Those on one side considering the States as districts of people composing one political Society; those on the other considering them as so many political societies. The fact is that the States do exist as political Societies, and a Gov^t is to be formed for them in their political capacity, as well as for the individuals composing them. Does it not seem to follow, that if the States as such are to exist they must be armed with some power of self-defence. This is the idea of (Col. Mason) who appears to have looked to the bottom of this matter. Besides the aristocratic and other interests, which ought to have the means of defending themselves, the States have their interests as such, and are equally entitled to like means. On the whole he thought that as in some respects the States are to be considered in their political capacity, and in others as districts of individual citizens the two ideas embraced on different sides, instead of being opposed to each other, ought to be combined; that in one branch the people, ought to be represented, in the other the States.

M^r Ghoram. The States as now confederated have no doubt a right to refuse to be consolidated, or to be formed into any new system. But he wished the small States which seemed most ready to object, to consider which are to give up most, they or the larger ones. He conceived that a rupture of the Union w^d be an event unhappy for all, but surely the large States would be least unable to take care of themselves, and to make connections with one another. The weak therefore were most interested in establishing some general system for maintaining order. If among individuals, composed partly of weak, and partly of strong, the former most need the protection of law & Government, the case is exactly the same with weak & powerful States. What would be the situation of Delaware (for these things he found must be spoken out, & it might as well be done at first as last) what w^d be the situation of Delaware in case of a separation of the States? Would she not be at the mercy of Pennsylvania? would not her true interest lie in being consolidated with her, and ought she not now to wish for such a union with P^a under one Gov^t as will put it out of the power of Pen^a to oppress her? Nothing can be more ideal than the danger apprehended by the States from their being formed into one nation. Mass^{ts} was originally three colonies, viz old Mass^{ts} Plymouth--& the province of Mayne. These apprehensions existed then. An incorporation took place; all parties were safe & satisfied; and every distinction is now forgotten. The case was similar with Connecticut & New haven. The dread of Union was reciprocal; the consequence of it equally salutary and satisfactory. In like manner N. Jersey has been made one society out of two parts. Should a separation of the States take place, the fate of N. Jersey w^d be worst of all. She has no foreign commerce & can have but little. P^a & N. York will continue to levy taxes on her consumption. If she consults her interest she w^d beg of all things to be annihilated. The apprehensions of the small States ought to be appeased by another reflection Mass^{ts} will be divided. The province of Maine is already considered as approaching the term of its annexation to it; and P^a will probably not increase, considering the present state of her population, & other events that may happen. On the whole he considered a Union of the States as necessary to their happiness, & a firm Gen^l Gov^t as necessary to their Union. He sh^d consider it as his duty if his colleagues viewed the matter in the same light he did to stay here as long as any other State would remain with them, in order to agree on some plan that could with propriety be recommended to the people.

M^r Elseworth, did not despair. He still trusted that some good plan of Gov^t w^d be devised & adopted.

M^r Read. He sh^d have no objection to the system if it were truly national, but it has too much of a federal mixture in it. The little States he thought had not much to fear. He suspected that the large States felt their want of energy, & wished for a Gen^l Gov^t to supply the defect. Mass^{ts} was evidently labouring under her weakness and he believed Delaware w^d not be in much danger if in her neighbourhood. Delaware had enjoyed tranquillity & he flattered himself w^d continue to do so. He was not however so selfish as not to wish for a good Gen^l Gov^t. In order to obtain one the whole States must be incorporated. If the States remain, the representatives of the large ones will stick together, and carry everything before them. The Executive also will be chosen under the influence of this partiality, and will betray it in his administration. These jealousies are inseparable from the scheme of leaving the States in existence. They must be done away. The ungranted lands also which have been assumed by particular States must also be given up. He repeated his approbation of the plan of M^r Hamilton, & wished it to be substituted in the place of that on the table.

M^r Madison agreed with Doc^r Johnson, that the mixed nature of the Gov^t ought to be kept in view; but thought too much stress was laid on the rank of the States as political societies. There was a gradation, he observed from the smallest corporation, with the most limited powers, to the largest empire with the most perfect sovereignty. He pointed out the limitations on the sovereignty of the States, as now confederated their laws in relation to the paramount law of the Confederacy were analagous to that of bye laws to the supreme law within a State. Under the proposed Gov^t the powers of the States will be much farther reduced. According to the views of every member, the Gen^l Gov^t will have powers far beyond those exercised by the British Parliament, when the States were part of the British Empire. It will in particular have the power, without the consent of the State Legislatures, to levy money directly on the people themselves; and therefore not to divest such unequal portions of the people as composed the several States, of an equal voice, would subject the system to the reproaches & evils which have resulted from the vicious representation in G. B.

He entreated the gentlemen representing the small States to renounce a principle w^{ch} was confessedly unjust, which c^d never be admitted, & if admitted must infuse mortality into a Constitution which we wished to last forever. He prayed them to ponder well the consequences of suffering the Confederacy to go to pieces. It had been s^d that the want of energy in the large states w^d be a security to the small. It was forgotten that this want of energy proceeded from the supposed security of the States ag^{st} all external danger. Let each state depend on itself for its security, & let apprehensions arise of danger, from distant powers or from neighbouring States, & the languishing condition of all the States, large as well as small, w^d soon be transformed into vigorous & high toned Gov^{ts}. His great fear was that their Gov^{ts} w^d then have too much energy, that these might not only be formidable in the large to the small States, but fatal to the internal liberty of all. The same causes which have rendered the old world the Theatre of incessant wars, & have banished liberty from the face of it, w^d soon produce the same effects here. The weakness & jealousy of the small States w^d quickly introduce some regular military force ag^{st} sudden danger from their powerful neighbours. The example w^d be followed by others, and w^d soon become universal. In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of war, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence ag^{st} foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people. It is perhaps questionable, whether the best concerted system of absolute power in Europe c^d maintain itself, in a situation, where no alarms of external danger c^d tame the people to the domestic yoke. The insular situation of G. Britain was the principal cause of her being an exception to the general fate of Europe. It has rendered less defence necessary, and admitted a kind of defence w^{ch} c^d not be used for the purpose of oppression.--These consequences he conceived ought to be apprehended whether the States should run into a total separation from each other, or sh^d enter into partial confederacies. Either event w^d be truly deplorable; & those who might be accessary to either, could never be forgiven by their Country, nor by themselves.

Article X (part 3)

[119]M^r Hamilton observed that individuals forming political Societies modify their rights differently with regard to suffrage. Examples of it are found in all the States. In all of them some individuals are deprived of the right altogether, not having the requisite qualification of property. In some of the States the right of suffrage is allowed in some cases and refused in others. To vote for a member in one branch, a certain quantum of property, to vote for a member in another branch of the Legislature, a higher quantum of property is required. In like manner States may modify their right of suffrage differently, the larger exercising a larger, the smaller a smaller share of it. But as States are a collection of individual men which ought we to respect most, the rights of the people composing them, or of the artificial beings resulting from the composition. Nothing could be more preposterous or absurd than to sacrifice the former to the latter. It has been s^d that if the smaller States renounce their equality, they renounce at the same time their liberty. The truth is it is a contest for power, not for liberty. Will the men composing the small States be less free than those composing the larger. The State of Delaware having 40,000 souls will lose power, if she has 1/10 only of the votes allowed to P^a having 400,000: but will the people of Del: be less free, if each citizen has an equal vote with each citizen of P^a He admitted that common residence within the same State would produce a certain degree of attachment; and that this principle might have a certain influence in public affairs. He thought however that this might by some precautions be in a great measure excluded: and that no material inconvenience could result from it, as there could not be any ground for combination among the States whose influence was most dreaded. The only considerable distinction of interests, lay between the carrying & non-carrying States, which divides instead of uniting the largest States. No considerable inconvenience had been found from the division of the State of N. York into different districts of different sizes.

[119] From this date he was absent till the ---- of ----.--Madison's Note.

Some of the consequences of a dissolution of the Union, and the establishment of partial confederacies, had been pointed out. He would add another of a most serious nature. Alliances will immediately be formed with different rival & hostile nations of Europes, who will foment disturbances among ourselves, and make us parties to all their own quarrels. Foreign Nations having American dominion are & must be jealous of us. Their representatives betray the utmost anxiety for our fate, & for the result of this meeting, which must have an essential influence on it.--It had been said that respectability in the eyes of foreign Nations was not the object at which we aimed; that the proper object of republican Government was domestic tranquillity & happiness. This was an ideal distinction. No Government could give us tranquillity & happiness at home, which did not possess sufficient stability and strength to make us respectable abroad. This was the critical moment for forming such a Government. We should run every risk in trusting to future amendments. As yet we retain the habits of union. We are weak & sensible of our weakness. Henceforward the motives will become feebler, and the difficulties greater. It is a miracle that we were now here exercising our tranquil & free deliberations on the subject. It would be madness to trust to future miracles. A thousand causes must obstruct a reproduction of them.

M^r Pierce considered the equality of votes under the Confederation as the great source of the public difficulties. The members of Cong^s were advocates for local advantages. State distinctions must be sacrificed as far as the general good required, but without destroying the States. Tho' from a small State he felt himself a Citizen of the U. S.

M^r Gerry, urged that we never were independent States, were not such now, & never could be even on the principles of the Confederation. The States & the advocates for them were intoxicated with the idea of their sovereignty. He was a member of Congress at the time the federal articles were formed. The injustice of allowing each State an equal vote was long insisted on. He voted for it, but it was ag^{st} his Judgment, and under the pressure of public danger, and the obstinacy of the lesser States. The present Confederation he considered as dissolving. The fate of the Union will be decided by the Convention. If they do not agree on something, few delegates will probably be appointed to Cong^s. If they do Cong^s will probably be kept up till the new System should be adopted. He lamented that instead of coming here like a band of brothers, belonging to the same family, we seemed to have brought with us the spirit of political negotiators.

M^r L. Martin remarked that the language of the States being sovereign & independent, was once familiar & understood; though it seemed now so strange & obscure. He read those passages in the articles of Confederation, which describe them in that language.

On the question as moved by M^r Lansing. Shall the word "not" be struck out.

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the motion to agree to the clause as reported, "that the rule of suffrage in the 1^{st} branch ought not to be according to that established by the Articles of the Confederation

Mass. ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Doc^r Johnson & M^r Elseworth moved to postpone the residue of the clause, & take up y^e 8 Resol:

On question

Mas. no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Elseworth moved that the rule of suffrage in the 2^d branch be the same with that established by the articles of Confederation. "He was not sorry on the whole he said that the vote just passed, had determined against this rule in the first branch. He hoped it would become a ground of compromise with regard to the 2^d branch. We were partly national; partly federal. The proportional representation in the first branch was conformable to the national principle & would secure the large States ag^{st} the small. An equality of voices was conformable to the federal principle and was necessary to secure the Small States ag^{st} the large. He trusted that on this middle ground a compromise would take place. He did not see that it could on any other. And if no compromise should take place, our meeting would not only be in vain but worse than in vain. To the Eastward he was sure Mass^{ts} was the only State that would listen to a proposition for excluding the States as equal political Societies, from an equal voice in both branches. The others would risk every consequence rather than part with so dear a right. An attempt to deprive them of it, was at once cutting the body of America in two, and as he supposed would be the case, somewhere about this part of it. The large States he conceived would notwithstanding the equality of votes, have an influence that would maintain their superiority. Holland, as had been admitted (by M^r Madison) had, notwithstanding a like equality in the Dutch Confederacy, a prevailing influence in the public measures. The power of self defence was essential to the small States. Nature had given it to the smallest insect of the creation. He could never admit that there was no danger of combinations among the large States. They will like individuals find out and avail themselves of the advantage to be gained by it. It was true the danger would be greater if they were contiguous and had a more immediate common interest. A defensive combination of the small States was rendered more difficult by their great number. He would mention another consideration of great weight. The existing confederation was founded on the equality of the States in the article of suffrage: was it meant to pay no regard to this antecedent plighted faith. Let a strong Executive, a Judiciary & Legislative power be created, but Let not too much be attempted; by which all may be lost. He was not in general a half-way man, yet he preferred doing half the good we could, rather than do nothing at all. The other half may be added, when the necessity shall be more fully experienced.[120]

[120] In King's Notes another speech of Madison's is given after Ellsworth's:

"Madison. One Gentleman from Connecticut has proposed doing as much as is prudent now, leaving future amendments to Posterity,--this is a dangerous doctrine. The Defects of the Amphictionic League were acknowledged, but were reformed. The Netherlands have four times attempted to make amendments in their Confederation, but have failed in each attempt. The Fear of innovation, the hue & Cry in favour of the Liberty of the People will as they have done prevent the necessary Reforms. If the States have equal Votes & influence in the Senate we shall be in the utmost danger, the minority of the People will govern the majority. Delaware during the late war opposed and defeated an Embargo, to which twelve States had agreed, and continued to supply the enemy with Provisions in time of war."--King's Life and Times of Rufus King, i., 612.

M^r Baldwin[121] could have wished that the powers of the General Legislature had been defined, before the mode of constituting it had been agitated. He should vote against the motion of M^r Elseworth, tho. he did not like the Resolution as it stood in the Report of the Committee of the whole. He thought the second branch ought to be the representation of property, and that in forming it therefore some reference ought to be had to the relative wealth of their Constituents, and to the principles on which the Senate of Mass^{ts} was constituted. He concurred with those who thought it w^d be impossible for the Gen^l Legislature to extend its cares to the local matters of the States.[122] Adj^d.

[121] "Mr. Baldwin is a Gentleman of superior abilities, and joins in a public debate with great art and eloquence. Having laid the foundation of a compleat classical education at Harvard College, he pursues every other study with ease. He is well acquainted with Books and Characters, and has an accommodating turn of mind, which enables him to gain the confidence of Men, and to understand them. He is a practising Attorney in Georgia, and has been twice a Member of Congress. Mr. Baldwin is about 38 years of age."--Pierce's Notes Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 333.

[122] According to Yates, after Baldwin spoke: "Mr. Madison. I would always exclude inconsistent principles in framing a system of government. The difficulty of getting its defects amended are great and sometimes insurmountable. The Virginia state government was the first which was made, and though its defects are evident to every person, we cannot get it amended. The Dutch have made four several attempts to amend their system without success. The few alterations made in it were by tumult and faction, and for the worse. If there was real danger, I would give the smaller states the defensive weapons--But there is none from that quarter. The great danger to our general government is the great southern and northern interests of the continent, being opposed to each other. Look to the votes in congress, and most of them stand divided by the geography of the country, not according to the size of the states.

"Suppose the first branch granted money, may not the second branch, from state views, counteract the first? In congress, the single state of Delaware prevented an embargo, at the time that all the other states thought it absolutely necessary for the support of the army. Other powers, and those very essential, besides the legislative, will be given to the second branch--such as the negativing all state laws. I would compromise on this question, if I could do it on correct principles, but otherwise not--if the old fabric of the confederation must be the groundwork of the new, we must fall."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 189.

SATURDAY JUNE 30. 1787. IN CONVENTION

M^r Brearly moved that the Presid^t write to the Executive of N. Hampshire, informing it that the business depending before the Convention was of such a nature as to require the immediate attendance of the deputies of that State. In support of his motion he observed that the difficulties of the subject and the diversity of opinions called for all the assistance we could possibly obtain, (it was well understood that the object was to add N. Hampshire to the n^o of States opposed to the doctrine of proportional representation, which it was presumed from her relative size she must be adverse to).

M^r Patterson seconded the motion.

M^r Rutlidge could see neither the necessity nor propriety of such a measure. They are not unapprized of the meeting, and can attend if they choose. Rho. Island might as well be urged to appoint & send deputies. Are we to suspend the business until the deputies arrive? if we proceed he hoped all the great points would be adjusted before the letter could produce its effect.

M^r King, said he had written more than once as a private correspondent, & the answers gave him every reason to expect that State would be represented very shortly, if it sh^d be so at all. Circumstances of a personal nature had hitherto prevented it. A letter c^d have no effect.

M^r Wilson wished to know whether it would be consistent with the rule or reason of secrecy, to communicate to N. Hampshire that the business was of such a nature as the motion described. It w^d spread a great alarm. Besides he doubted the propriety of soliciting any State on the subject; the meeting being merely voluntary--on motion of M^r Brearly Mas^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a not on y^e floor. Del. not on floor. M^d div^d V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. not on floor.

The motion of M^r Elseworth resumed for allowing each State an equal vote in y^e 2^d branch.

M^r Wilson did not expect such a motion after the establishment of y^e contrary principle in the 1^{st} branch; and considering the reasons which would oppose it, even if an equal vote had been allowed in the 1^{st} branch. The Gentleman from Connecticut (M^r Elseworth) had pronounced that if the motion should not be acceded to, of all the States North of Pen^a one only would agree to any Gen^l Government. He entertained more favorable hopes of Conn^t and of the other Northern States. He hoped the alarms exceeded their cause, and that they would not abandon a Country to which they were bound by so many strong and endearing ties. But should the deplored event happen, it would neither stagger his sentiments nor his duty. If the minority of the people of America refuse to coalesce with the majority on just and proper principles, if a separation must take place, it could never happen on better grounds. The votes of yesterday ag^{st} the just principle of representation, were as 22 to 90 of the people of America. Taking the opinions to be the same on this point, and he was sure if there was any room for change, it could not be on the side of the majority, the question will be shall less than 1/4 of the U. States withdraw themselves from the Union; or shall more than 3/4 renounce the inherent, indisputable and unalienable rights of men, in favor of the artificial systems of States. If issue must be joined, it was on this point he would chuse to join it. The Gentleman from Connecticut in supposing that the preponderancy secured to the majority in the 1^{st} branch had removed the objections to an equality of votes in the 2^d branch for the security of the minority, narrowed the case extremely. Such an equality will enable the minority to controul in all cases whatsoever, the sentiments and interests of the majority. Seven States will controul six: Seven States, according to the estimates that had been used, composed 24/90 of the whole people. It would be in the power then of less than 1/3 to overrule 2/3 whenever a question should happen to divide the States in that manner. Can we forget for whom we are forming a Government? Is it for men, or for the imaginary beings called States? Will our honest Constituents be satisfied with metaphysical distinctions? Will they, ought they to be satisfied with being told, that the one-third compose the greater number of States? The rule of suffrage ought on every principle to be the same in the 2^d as in the 1^{st} branch. If the Government be not laid on this foundation, it can be neither solid nor lasting. Any other principle will be local, confined & temporary. This will expand with the expansion, and grow with the growth of the U. States.--Much has been said of an imaginary combination of three States. Sometimes a danger of monarchy, sometimes of aristocracy has been charged on it. No explanation however of the danger has been vouchsafed. It would be easy to prove both from reason & history that rivalships would be more probable than coalitions; and that there are no coinciding interests that could produce the latter. No answer has yet been given to the observations of (M^r Madison) on this subject. Should the Executive Magistrate be taken from one of the large States would not the other two be thereby thrown into the scale with the other States? Whence then the danger of monarchy? Are the people of the three large States more aristocratic than those of the small ones? Whence then the danger of aristocracy from their influence? It is all a mere illusion of names. We talk of States, till we forget what they are composed of. Is a real & fair majority, the natural hot-bed of aristocracy? It is a part of the definition of this species of Gov^t or rather of tyranny, that the smaller number governs the greater. It is true that a majority of States in the 2^d branch cannot carry a law ag^{st} a majority of the people in the 1^{st}. But this removes half only of the objection. Bad Govern^{ts} are of two sorts. 1. that which does too little. 2. that which does too much: that which fails thro' weakness; and that which destroys thro' oppression. Under which of these evils do the U. States at present groan? Under the weakness and inefficiency of its Govern^t. To remedy this weakness we have been sent to this Convention. If the motion should be agreed to, we shall leave the U. S. fettered precisely as heretofore; with the additional mortification of seeing the good purposes of y^e fair representation of the people in the 1^{st} branch, defeated in the 2^d. Twenty four will still controul sixty six. He lamented that such a disagreement should prevail on the point of representation, as he did not foresee that it would happen on the other point most contested, the boundary between the Gen^l & the local authorities. He thought the States necessary & valuable parts of a good system.

M^r Elseworth. The capital objection of M^r Wilson, "that the minority will rule the majority" is not true. The power is given to the few to save them from being destroyed by the many. If an equality of votes had been given to them in both branches, the objection might have had weight. Is it a novel thing that the few should have a check on the many? Is it not the case in the British Constitution the wisdom of which so many gentlemen have united in applauding? Have not the House of Lords, who form so small a proportion of the nation a negative on the laws, as a necessary defence of their peculiar rights ag^{st} the encroachm^{ts} of the Commons. No instance of a Confederacy has existed in which an equality of voices has not been exercised by the members of it. We are running from one extreme to another. We are razing the foundations of the building, when we need only repair the roof. No salutary measure has been lost for want of a majority of the States, to favor it. If security be all that the great States wish for the 1^{st} branch secures them. The danger of combinations among them is not imaginary. Altho' no particular abuses could be foreseen by him, the possibility of them would be sufficient to alarm him. But he could easily conceive cases in which they might result from such combinations. Suppose that in pursuance of some commercial treaty or arrangement, three or four free ports & no more were to be established would not combinations be formed in favor of Boston--Philad^a & some port of the Chesapeak? A like concert might be formed in the appointment of the Great officers. He appealed again to the obligations of the federal pact which was still in force, and which had been entered into with so much solemnity; persuading himself that some regard would still be paid to the plighted faith under which each State small as well as great, held an equal right of suffrage in the general Councils. His remarks were not the result of partial or local views. The State he represented (Connecticut) held a middle rank.

M^r Madison did justice to the able and close reasoning of M^r E. but must observe that it did not always accord with itself. On another occasion, the large States were described by him as the Aristocratic States, ready to oppress the small. Now the Small are the House of Lords requiring a negative to defend them ag^{st} the more numerous Commons. M^r E. had also erred in saying that no instance had existed in which confederated States had not retained to themselves a perfect equality of suffrage. Passing over the German system in which the K. of Prussia has nine voices, he reminded M^r E. of the Lycian Confederacy, in which the component members had votes proportioned to their importance, and which Montesquieu recommends as the fittest model for that form of Government. Had the fact been as stated by M^r E. it would have been of little avail to him, or rather would have strengthened the arguments ag^{st} him; the History & fate of the several confederacies modern as well as Antient, demonstrating some radical vice in their structure. In reply to the appeal of M^r E. to the faith plighted in the existing federal compact, he remarked that the party claiming from others an adherence to a common engagement ought at least to be guiltless itself of a violation. Of all the States however Connecticut was perhaps least able to urge this plea. Besides the various omissions to perform the stipulated acts from which no State was free, the Legislature of that State had by a pretty recent vote, positively refused to pass a law for complying with the Requisitions of Cong^s, and had transmitted a copy of the vote to Cong^s. It was urged, he said, continually that an equality of votes in the 2^d branch was not only necessary to secure the small, but would be perfectly safe to the large ones whose majority in the 1^{st} branch was an effectual bulwark. But notwithstanding this apparent defence, the majority of States might still injure the majority of people. 1. they could obstruct the wishes and interests of the majority. 2. they could extort measures repugnant to the wishes & interest of the Majority. 3. they could impose measures adverse thereto; as the 2^d branch will prob[~l]y exercise some great powers, in which the 1^{st} will not participate. He admitted that every peculiar interest whether in any class of Citizens, or any description of States, ought to be secured as far as possible. Wherever there is danger of attack there ought to be given a Constitutional power of defence. But he contended that the States were divided into different interests not by their difference of size, but by other circumstances; the most material of which resulted partly from climate, but principally from the effects of their having or not having slaves. These two causes concurred in forming the great division of interests in the U. States. It did not lie between the large & small States: It lay between the Northern & Southern. And if any defensive power were necessary, it ought to be mutually given to these two interests. He was so strongly impressed with this important truth that he had been casting about in his mind for some expedient that would answer the purpose. The one which had occurred was that instead of proportioning the votes of the States in both branches, to their respective numbers of inhabitants computing the slaves in the ratio of 5 to 3, they should be represented in one branch according to the number of free inhabitants only; and in the other according to the whole n^o counting the slaves as free. By this arrangement the Southern Scale would have the advantage in one House, and the Northern in the other. He had been restrained from proposing this expedient by two considerations: one was his unwillingness to urge any diversity of interests on an occasion where it is but too apt to arise of itself--the other was, the inequality of powers that must be vested in the two branches, and which w^d destroy the equilibrium of interests.

M^r Elseworth assured the House that whatever might be thought of the Representatives of Connecticut the State was entirely federal in her disposition. He appealed to her great exertions during the war, in supplying both men & money. The muster rolls would show she had more troops in the field than Virg^a. If she had been Delinquent, it had been from inability, and not more so than other States.

M^r Sherman. M^r Madison had animadverted on the delinquency of the States, when his object required him to prove that the Constitution of Cong^s was faulty. Cong^s is not to blame for the faults of the States. Their measures have been right, and the only thing wanting has been, a further power in Cong^s to render them effectual.

M^r Davy was much embarrassed and wished for explanations. The Report of the Committee allowing the Legislatures to choose the Senate, and establishing a proportional representation in it, seemed to be impracticable. There will according to this rule be ninety members in the outset, and the number will increase as new States are added. It was impossible that so numerous a body could possess the activity and other qualities required in it. Were he to vote on the comparative merits of the report as it stood, and the amendment, he should be constrained to prefer the latter. The appointment of the Senate by electors chosen by the people for that purpose was he conceived liable to an insuperable difficulty. The larger Counties or districts thrown into a general district, would certainly prevail over the smaller Counties or Districts, and merit in the latter would be excluded altogether. The report therefore seemed to be right in referring the appointment to the Legislatures, whose agency in the general System did not appear to him objectionable as it did to some others. The fact was that the local prejudices & interests which could not be denied to exist, would find their way into the national Councils whether the Representatives should be chosen by the Legislatures or by the people themselves. On the other hand if a proportional representation was attended with insuperable difficulties, the making the Senate the Representative of the States, looked like bringing us back to Cong^s again, and shutting out all the advantages expected from it. Under this view of the subject he could not vote for any plan for the Senate yet proposed. He thought that in general there were extremes on both sides. We were partly federal, partly national in our Union, and he did not see why the Gov^t might not in some respects operate on the States, in others on the people.

M^r Wilson admitted the question concerning the number of Senators, to be embarrassing. If the smallest States be allowed one, and the others in proportion, the Senate will certainly be too numerous. He looked forward to the time when the smallest States will contain 100,000 souls at least. Let there be then one Senator in each for every 100,000 souls and let the States not having that n^o of inhabitants be allowed one. He was willing himself to submit to this temporary concession to the small States; and threw out the idea as a ground of compromise.

Doc^r Franklin. The diversity of opinions turns on two points. If a proportional representation takes place, the small States contend that their liberties will be in danger. If an equality of votes is to be put in its place, the large States say their money will be in danger. When a broad table is to be made, and the edges of planks do not fit, the artist takes a little from both, and makes a good joint. In like manner here both sides must part with some of their demands, in order that they may join in some accommodating proposition. He had prepared one which he would read, that it might lie on the table for consideration. The proposition was in the words following

"That the Legislatures of the several States shall choose & send an equal number of Delegates, namely ---- who are to compose the 2^d branch of the General Legislature--

That in all cases or questions wherein the Sovereignty of individual States may be affected, or whereby their authority over their own Citizens may be diminished, or the authority of the General Government within the several States augmented, each State shall have equal suffrage.

That in the appointment of all Civil officers of y^e Gen^l Gov^t in the election of whom the 2^d branch may by the Constitution have part, each State shall have equal suffrage.

That in fixing the Salaries of such Officers, and in all allowances for public services, and generally in all appropriations & dispositions of money to be drawn out of the general Treasury; and in all laws for supplying that Treasury, the Delegates of the several States shall have suffrage in proportion to the Sums which their respective States do actually contribute to the Treasury."

Where a ship had many owners this was the rule of deciding on her expedition. He had been one of the Ministers from this Country to France during the joint war and w^d have been very glad if allowed a vote in distributing the money to carry it on.

M^r King observed that the simple question was whether each State should have an equal vote in the 2^d branch; that it must be apparent to those Gentlemen who liked neither the motion for this equality, nor the report as it stood, that the report was as susceptible of melioration as the motion; that a reform would be nugatory & nominal only if we should make another Congress of the proposed Senate: that if the adherence to an equality of votes was fixed & unalterable, there could not be less obstinacy on the other side, & that we were in fact cut asunder already, and it was in vain to shut our eyes against it: that he was however filled with astonishment that if we were convinced that every man in America was secured in all his rights, we should be ready to sacrifice this substantial good to the Phantom of State sovereignty: that his feelings were more harrowed & his fears more agitated for his Country than he could express, that he conceived this to be the last opportunity of providing for its liberty & happiness: that he could not therefore but repeat his amazement that when a just govern^t founded on a fair representation of the people of America was within our reach, we should renounce the blessing, from an attachment to the ideal freedom & importance of States: that should this wonderful illusion continue to prevail, his mind was prepared for every event, rather than to sit down under a Gov^t founded in a vicious principle of representation, and which must be as short lived as it would be unjust. He might prevail on himself to accede to some such expedient as had been hinted by M^r Wilson; but he never could listen to an equality of votes as proposed in the motion.

M^r Dayton. When assertion is given for proof, and terror substituted for argument, he presumed they would have no effect however eloquently spoken. It should have been shewn that the evils we have experienced have proceeded from the equality now objected to; and that the seeds of dissolution for the State Governments are not sown in the Gen^l Government. He considered the system on the table as a novelty, an amphibious monster; and was persuaded that it never would be rec^d by the people. M^r Martin w^d never confederate if it could not be done on just principles.

M^r Madison would acquiesce in the concession hinted by M^r Wilson, on condition that a due independence should be given to the Senate. The plan in its present shape makes the Senate absolutely dependent on the States. The Senate therefore is only another edition of Cong^s. He knew the faults of that Body & had used a bold language ag^{st} it. Still he would preserve the State rights, as carefully as the trials by jury.

M^r Bedford, contended that there was no middle way between a perfect consolidation and a mere confederacy of the States. The first is out of the question, and in the latter they must continue if not perfectly, yet equally sovereign. If political Societies possess ambition avarice, and all the other passions which render them formidable to each other, ought we not to view them in this light here? Will not the same motives operate in America as elsewhere? If any gentleman doubts it let him look at the votes. Have they not been dictated by interest, by ambition? Are not the large States evidently seeking to aggrandize themselves at the expense of the small? They think no doubt that they have right on their side, but interest had blinded their eyes. Look at Georgia. Though a small State at present, she is actuated by the prospect of soon being a great one. S. Carolina is actuated both by present interest & future prospects. She hopes too to see the other States cut down to her own dimensions. N. Carolina has the same motives of present & future interest. Virg^a follows. Mary^d is not on that side of the Question. Pen^a has a direct and future interest. Mass^{ts} has a decided and palpable interest in the part she takes. Can it be expected that the small States will act from pure disinterestedness. Look at G. Britain. Is the Representation there less unequal? But we shall be told again that that is the rotten part of the Constitution. Have not the boroughs however held fast their constitutional rights? And are we to act with greater purity than the rest of mankind. An exact proportion in the Representation is not preserved in any one of the States. Will it be said that an inequality of power will not result from an inequality of votes. Give the opportunity, and ambition will not fail to abuse it. The whole History of mankind proves it. The three large States have a common interest to bind them together in commerce. But whether a combination as we suppose, or a competition as others suppose, shall take place among them, in either case, the small States must be ruined. We must like Solon make such a Govern^t as the people will approve. Will the smaller States ever agree to the proposed degradation of them. It is not true that the people will not agree to enlarge the powers of the present Cong^s. The language of the people has been that Cong^s ought to have the power of collecting an impost, and of coercing the States where it may be necessary. On The first point they have been explicit &, in a manner, unanimous in their declarations. And must they not agree to this & similar measures if they ever mean to discharge their engagements. The little States are willing to observe their engagements, but will meet the large ones on no ground but that of the Confederation. We have been told with a dictatorial air that this is the last moment for a fair trial in favor of a Good Governm^t. It will be the last indeed if the propositions reported from the Committee go forth to the people. He was under no apprehensions. The Large States dare not dissolve the Confederation. If they do the small ones will find some foreign ally of more honor and good faith, who will take them by the hand and do them justice. He did not mean by this to intimidate or alarm. It was a natural consequence, which ought to be avoided by enlarging the federal powers not annihilating the federal system. This is what the people expect. All agree in the necessity of a more efficient Gov^t and why not make such an one as they desire.

M^r Elseworth. Under a National Gov^t he should participate in the National Security, as remarked by (M^r King) but that was all. What he wanted was domestic happiness. The Nat^l Gov^t could not descend to the local objects on which this depended. It could only embrace objects of a general nature. He turned his eyes therefore for the preservation of his rights to the State Gov^{ts}. From these alone he could derive the greatest happiness he expects in this life. His happiness depends on their existence, as much as a new born infant on its mother for nourishment. If this reasoning was not satisfactory, he had nothing to add that could be so.

M^r King was for preserving the States in a subordinate degree, and as far as they could be necessary for the purposes stated by M^r Elseworth. He did not think a full answer had been given to those who apprehended a dangerous encroachment on their jurisdictions. Expedients might be devised as he conceived that would give them all the security the nature of things would admit of. In the establish^t of Societies the Constitution was to the Legislature what the laws were to individuals. As the fundamental rights of individuals are secured by express provisions in the State Constitutions; why may not a like security be provided for the Rights of States in the National Constitution. The articles of Union between Engl^d & Scotland furnish an example of such a provision in favor of sundry rights of Scotland. When that Union was in agitation, the same language of apprehension which has been heard from the smaller States, was in the mouths of the Scotch patriots. The articles however have not been violated and the Scotch have found an increase of prosperity & happiness. He was aware that this will be called a mere paper security. He thought it a sufficient answer to say that if fundamental articles of compact, are no sufficient defence against physical power, neither will there be any safety ag^{st} it if there be no compact. He could not sit down, without taking some notice of the language of the honorable gentleman from Delaware (M^r Bedford). It was not he that had uttered a dictatorial language. This intemperance had marked the honorable Gentleman himself. It was not he who with a vehemence unprecedented in that House, had declared himself ready to turn his hopes from our common Country, and court the protection of some foreign hand. This too was the language of the Honbl member himself. He was grieved that such a thought had entered into his heart. He was more grieved that such an expression had dropped from his lips. The gentleman c^d only excuse it to himself on the score of passion. For himself whatever might be his distress, he w^d never court relief from a foreign power.

Adjourned.

MONDAY JULY 2^D IN CONVENTION.

On the question for allowing each State one vote in the second branch as moved by M^r Elseworth, Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. M^r Jenifer being not present M^r Martin alone voted V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. div^d. M^r Houston no. M^r Baldwin ay.

M^r Pinkney thought an equality of votes in the 2^d branch inadmissible. At the same time candor obliged him to admit that the large States would feel a partiality for their own Citizens & give them a preference, in appointments: that they might also find some common points in their Commercial interests, and promote treaties favorable to them. There is a real distinction [between] the Northern & South^n interests. N. Carol^a S. Carol: & Geo. in their Rice & Indigo had a peculiar interest which might be sacrificed. How then shall the larger States be prevented from administering the Gen^l Gov^t as they please, without being themselves unduly subjected to the will of the smaller? By allowing them some but not a full, proportion. He was extremely anxious that something should be done, considering this as the last appeal to a regular experiment. Cong^s have failed in almost every effort for an amendment of the federal System. Nothing has prevented a dissolution of it, but the appointm^t of this Convention; & he could not express his alarms for the consequence of such an event. He read his motion, to form the States into classes, with an apportionment of Senators among them (see Art: 4, of his plan).

General Pinkney was willing the motion might be considered. He did not entirely approve it. He liked better the motion of Doc^r Franklin (which see Saturday June 30). Some Compromise seemed to be necessary, the States being exactly divided on the question for an equality of votes in the 2^d branch. He proposed that a Committee consisting of a member from each State should be appointed to devise & report some compromise.

M^r L. Martin had no objection to a commitment, but no modifications whatever could reconcile the Smaller States to the least diminution of their equal Sovereignty.

M^r Sherman. We are now at a full stop, and nobody he supposed meant that we sh^d break up without doing something. A committee he thought most likely to hit on some expedient.

[123]Mr. Gov^r Morris. thought a Com^e adviseable as the Convention had been equally divided. He had a stronger reason also. The mode of appointing the 2^d branch tended he was sure to defeat the object of it. What is this object? To check the precipitation, changeableness, and excesses of the first branch. Every man of observation had seen in the democratic branches of the State Legislatures, precipitation--in Congress changeableness, in every department excesses ag^{st} personal liberty private property & personal safety. What qualities are necessary to constitute a check in this case? Abilities and virtue, are equally necessary in both branches. Something more then is now wanted, 1. the checking branch must have a personal interest in checking the other branch, one interest must be opposed to another interest. Vices as they exist, must be turned ag^{st} each other. 2. It must have great personal property, it must have the aristocratic spirit; it must love to lord it thro' pride. Pride is indeed the great principle that actuates both the poor & the rich. It is this principle which in the former resists, in the latter abuses authority. 3. It should be independent. In Religion the Creature is apt to forget its Creator. That it is otherwise in Political Affairs, the late debates here are an unhappy proof. The aristocratic body, should be as independent & as firm as the democratic. If the members of it are to revert to a dependence on the democratic choice, the democratic scale will preponderate. All the guards contrived by America have not restrained the Senatorial branches of the Legislatures from a servile complaisance to the democratic. If the 2^d branch is to be dependent we are better without it. To make it independent, it should be for life. It will then do wrong, it will be said. He believed so; He hoped so. The Rich will strive to establish their dominion & enslave the rest. They always did. They always will. The proper security ag^{st} them is to form them into a separate interest. The two forces will then controul each other. Let the rich mix with the poor and in a Commercial Country, they will establish an Oligarchy. Take away commerce, and the democracy will triumph. Thus it has been all the world over. So it will be among us. Reason tells us we are but men: and we are not to expect any particular interference of Heaven in our favor. By thus combining & setting apart, the aristocratic interest, the popular interest will be combined ag^{st} it. There will be a mutual check and mutual security. 4. An independence for life, involves the necessary permanency. If we change our measures nobody will trust us: and how avoid a change of measures, but by avoiding a change of men. Ask any man if he confides in Cong^s if he confides in the State of Pen^a if he will lend his money or enter into contract? He will tell you no. He sees no stability. He can repose no confidence. If G. B. were to explain her refusal to treat with us, the same reasoning would be employed.--He disliked the exclusion of the 2^d branch from holding offices. It is dangerous. It is like the imprudent exclusion of the military officers during the war, from civil appointments. It deprives the Executive of the principal source of influence. If danger be apprehended from the Executive what a left-handed way is this of obviating it? If the son, the brother or the friend can be appointed, the danger may be even increased, as the disqualified father &c. can then boast of a disinterestedness which he does not possess. Besides shall the best, the most able, the most virtuous citizens not be permitted to hold offices? Who then are to hold them? He was also ag^{st} paying the Senators. They will pay themselves if they can. If they can not they will be rich and can do without it. Of such the 2^d branch ought to consist; and none but such can compose it if they are not to be paid--He contended that the Executive should appoint the Senate & fill up vacancies. This gets rid of the difficulty in the present question. You may begin with any ratio you please; it will come to the same thing. The members being independ^t & for life, may be taken as well from one place as from another.--It should be considered too how the scheme could be carried through the States. He hoped there was strength of mind eno' in this House to look truth in the face. He did not hesitate therefore to say that loaves & fishes must bribe the Demagogues. They must be made to expect higher offices under the general than the State Gov^{ts}. A Senate for life will be a noble bait. Without such captivating prospects, the popular leaders will oppose & defeat the plan. He perceived that the 1^{st} branch was to be chosen by the people of the States; the 2^d by those chosen by the people. Is not here a Gov^t by the States, a Govern^t by Compact between Virg^a in the 1^{st} & 2^d branch, Mass^{ts} in the 1^{st} & 2^d branch &c. This is going back to mere treaty. It it no Gov^t at all. It is altogether dependent on the States, and will act over again the part which Cong^s has acted. A firm Govern^t alone can protect our liberties. He fears the influence of the rich. They will have the same effect here as elsewhere if we do not by such a Gov^t keep them within their proper sphere. We should remember that the people never act from reason alone. The Rich will take the advantage of their passions & make these the instruments for oppressing them. The Result of the Contest will be a violent aristocracy, or a more violent despotism. The schemes of the Rich will be favored by the extent of the Country. The people in such distant parts cannot communicate & act in concert. They will be the dupes of those who have more knowledge & intercourse. The only security ag^{st} encroachments will be a select & sagacious body of men, instituted to watch ag^{st} them on all sides. He meant only to hint these observations, without grounding any motion on them.

[123] He had just returned from N. Y. hav^g left y^e Convention a few days after it commenced business.--Madison's Note.

M^r Randolph favored the commitment though he did not expect much benefit from the expedient. He animadverted on the warm & rash language of M^r Bedford on Saturday; reminded the small States that if the large States should combine some danger of which he did not deny there would be a check in the revisionary power of the Executive, and intimated that in order to render this still more effectual, he would agree that in the choice of an Executive each State should have an equal vote. He was persuaded that two such opposite bodies as M^r Morris had planned, could never long co-exist. Dissentions would arise, as has been seen even between the Senate and H. of Delegates in Maryland, appeals would be made to the people; and in a little time commotions would be the result--He was far from thinking the large States could subsist of themselves any more than the small; an avulsion would involve the whole in ruin, and he was determined to pursue such a scheme of Government as would secure us ag^{st} such a calamity.

M^r Strong was for the co[~m]itment; and hoped the mode of constituting both branches would be referred. If they should be established on different principles, contentions would prevail, and there would never be a concurrence in necessary measures.

Doc^r Williamson. If we do not concede on both sides, our business must soon be at an end. He approved of the co[~m]itment, supposing that as the Com^e w^d be a smaller body, a compromise would be pursued with more coolness.

M^r Wilson objected to the Committee, because it would decide according to that very rule of voting which was opposed on one side. Experience in Cong^s had also proved the inutility of Committees consisting of members from each State.

M^r Lansing w^d not oppose the commitment, though expecting little advantage from it.

M^r Madison opposed the Co[~m]itment. He had rarely seen any other effect than delay from such Committees in Cong^s. Any scheme of compromise that could be proposed in the Committee might as easily be proposed in the House; and the report of the Committee where it contained merely the opinion of the Com^e would neither shorten the discussion, nor influence the decision of the House.

M^r Gerry was for the commitm^t. Something must be done, or we shall disappoint not only America, but the whole world. He suggested a consideration of the State we should be thrown into by the failure of the Union. We should be without an Umpire to decide controversies and must be at the mercy of events. What too is to become of our treaties--what of our foreign debts, what of our domestic? We must make concessions on both sides. Without these the Constitutions of the several States would never have been formed.

On the question "for co[~m]iting," generally:

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P. ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question for co[~m]iting it "to a member from each State,"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The Co[~m]ittee elected by ballot, were M^r Gerry, M^r Elseworth, M^r Yates, M^r Patterson, D^r Franklin, M^r Bedford, M^r Martin, M^r Mason, M^r Davy, M^r Rutlidge, Mr. Baldwin.

That time might be given to the Co[~m]ittee, and to such as chose to attend to the celebrations on the anniversary of Independence, the Convention adjourned till Thursday.[124]

[124] "TUESDAY, July 3, 1787.

"The grand committee met. Mr. Gerry was chosen chairman.

"The committee proceeded to consider in what manner they should discharge the business with which they were intrusted. By the proceedings in the Convention, they were so equally divided on the important question of representation in the two branches, that the idea of a conciliatory adjustment must have been in contemplation of the house in the appointment of this committee. But still, how to effect this salutory purpose was the question. Many of the members, impressed with the utility of a general government, connected with it the indispensable necessity of a representation from the states according to their numbers and wealth; while others, equally tenacious of the rights of the states, would admit of no other representation but such as was strictly federal, or, in other words, equality of suffrage. This brought on a discussion of the principles on which the house had divided, and a lengthy recapitulation of the arguments advanced in the house in support of these opposite propositions. As I had not openly explained my sentiments on any former occasion on this question, but constantly, in giving my vote, showed my attachment to the national government on federal principles, I took this occasion to explain my motives.

"These remarks gave rise to a motion of Dr. Franklin, which after some modification was agreed to, and made the basis of the following report of the Committee."--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 205. The report is given by Madison.

* * * * *

Hamilton, who had gone to New York, wrote to Washington under date of July 3d:

"In my passage through the Jerseys, and since my arrival here, I have taken particular pains to discover the public sentiment, and I am more and more convinced that this is the critical opportunity for establishing the prosperity of this country on a solid foundation. I have conversed with men of information, not only in this city, but from different parts of the State, and they agree that there has been an astonishing revolution for the better in the minds of the people.

"The prevailing apprehension among thinking men is, that the Convention, from the fear of shocking the popular opinion, will not go far enough. They seem to be convinced that a strong, well-mounted government will better suit the popular palate than one of a different complexion. Men in office are indeed taking all possible pains to give an unfavorable impression of the Convention, but the current seems to be moving strongly the other way.

"A plain but sensible man, in a conversation I had with him yesterday, expressed himself nearly in this manner: The people begin to be convinced that 'their excellent form of government,' as they have been used to call it, will not answer their purpose, and that they must substitute something not very remote from that which they have lately quitted.

"These appearances, though they will not warrant a conclusion that the people are yet ripe for such a plan as I advocate, yet serve to prove that there is no reason to despair of their adopting one equally energetic, if the Convention should think proper to propose it. They serve to prove that we ought not to allow too much weight to objections drawn from the supposed repugnance of the people to an efficient constitution. I confess I am more and more inclined to believe that former habits of thinking are regaining their influence with more rapidity than is generally imagined.

"Not having compared ideas with you, sir, I cannot judge how far our sentiments agree; but, as I persuade myself the genuineness of my representations will receive credit with you, my anxiety for the event of the deliberations of the Convention induces me to make this communication of what appears to be the tendency of the public mind.

"I own to you, sir, that I am seriously and deeply distressed at the aspect of the counsels which prevailed when I left Philadelphia. I fear we shall let slip the golden opportunity of rescuing the American empire from disunion, anarchy, and misery.

"No motley or feeble measure can answer the end, or will finally receive the public support. Decision is true wisdom, and will not be less reputable to the Convention than salutary to the community.

"I shall of necessity remain here ten or twelve days. If I have reason to believe that my attendance at Philadelphia will not be mere waste of time, I shall, after that period, rejoin the Convention."--Hamilton's Works (Lodge).

THURSDAY JULY 5^{TH} IN CONVENTION

M^r Gerry delivered in from the Committee appointed on Monday last the following Report.

"The Committee to whom was referred the 8^{th} Resol. of the Report from the Committee of the Whole House, and so much of the 7^{th} as has not been decided on, submit the following Report: That the subsequent propositions be recommended to the Convention on condition that both shall be generally adopted. I. that in the 1^{st} branch of the Legislature each of the States now in the Union shall be allowed 1 member for every 40,000 inhabitants of the description reported in the 7^{th} Resolution of the Com^e of the whole House: that each State not containing that number shall be allowed 1 member: that all bills for raising or appropriating money, and for fixing the salaries of the officers of the Govern^t of the U. States shall originate in the 1^{st} branch of the Legislature, and shall not be altered or amended by the 2^d branch; and that no money shall be drawn from the public Treasury but in pursuance of appropriations to be originated in the 1^{st} branch. "II. That in the 2^d branch each State shall have an equal vote."[125]

[125] This report was founded on a motion in the Co[~m]itte made by D^r Franklin. It was barely acquiesced in by the members from the States opposed to an equity of votes in the 2^d branch and was evidently considered by the members on the other side, as a gaining of their point. A motion was made by M^r Sherman. He acted in the place of M^r Elseworth who was kept away by indisposition, in the Committee to the following effect "that each State should have an equal vote in the 2^d branch; provided that no decision therein should prevail unless the majority of States concurring should also comprise a majority of the inhabitants of the U. States." This motion was not much deliberated on nor approved in the Committee. A similar proviso had been proposed in the debates on the articles of Confederation in 1777, to the articles giving certain powers to "nine States." See Journals of Cong^s for 1777, p. 462.--Madison Note.

M^r Ghoram observed that as the report consisted of propositions mutually conditional he wished to hear some explanations touching the grounds on which the conditions were estimated.

M^r Gerry. The Committee were of different opinions as well as the Deputations from which the Com^e were taken, and agreed to the Report merely in order that some ground of accommodation might be proposed. Those opposed to the equality of votes have only assented conditionally; and if the other side do not generally agree will not be under any obligation to support the Report.

Mr. Wilson thought the Committee had exceeded their powers.

M^r Martin was for taking the question on the whole report.

M^r Wilson was for a division of the question; otherwise it w^d be a leap in the dark.

M^r Madison could not regard the privilege of originating money bills as any concession on the side of the small States. Experience proved that it had no effect. If seven States in the upper branch wished a bill to be originated, they might surely find some member from some of the same States in the lower branch who would originate it. The restriction as to amendments was of as little consequence. Amendments could be handed privately by the Senate to members in the other house. Bills could be negatived that they might be sent up in the desired shape. If the Senate should yield to the obstinacy of the 1^{st} branch the use of that body as a check would be lost. If the 1^{st} branch should yield to that of the Senate, the privilege would be nugatory. Experience had also shewn both in G. B. and the States having a similar regulation that it was a source of frequent & obstinate altercations. These considerations had produced a rejection of a like motion on a former occasion when judged by its own merits. It could not therefore be deemed any concession on the present, and left in force all the objections which had prevailed ag^{st} allowing each State an equal voice. He conceived that the Convention was reduced to the alternative of either departing from justice in order to conciliate the smaller States, and the minority of the people of the U. S. or of displeasing these by justly gratifying the larger States and the majority of the people. He could not himself hesitate as to the option he ought to make. The Convention with justice & the majority of the people on their side, had nothing to fear. With injustice and the minority on their side they had every thing to fear. It was in vain to purchase concord in the Convention on terms which would perpetuate discord among their Constituents. The Convention ought to pursue a plan which would bear the test of examination, which would be espoused & supported by the enlightened and impartial part of America, & which they could themselves vindicate and urge. It should be considered that altho' at first many may judge of the system reco[~m]ended, by their opinion of the Convention, yet finally all will judge of the Convention by the System. The merits of the System alone can finally & effectually obtain the public suffrage. He was not apprehensive that the people of the small States would obstinately refuse to accede to a Gov^t founded on just principles, and promising them substantial protection. He could not suspect that Delaware would brave the consequences of seeking her fortunes apart from the other States, rather than submit to such a Gov^t; much less could he suspect that she would pursue the rash policy of courting foreign support, which the warmth of one of her representatives (M^r Bedford) had suggested, or if she sh^d, that any foreign nation w^d be so rash as to hearken to the overture. As little could he suspect that the people of N. Jersey notwithstanding the decided tone of the gentlemen from that State, would choose rather to stand on their own legs, and bid defiance to events, than to acquiesce under an establishment founded on principles the justice of which they could not dispute, and absolutely necessary to redeem them from the exactions levied on them by the co[~m]erce of the neighbouring States. A review of other States would prove that there was as little reason to apprehend an inflexible opposition elsewhere. Harmony in the Convention was no doubt much to be desired. Satisfaction to all the States, in the first instance still more so. But if the principal States comprehending a majority of the people of the U. S. should concur in a just & judicious plan, he had the firmest hopes, that all the other States would by degrees accede to it.[126]

[126] Yates, and his colleague, Lansing, left the Convention July 5, despairing of the result of its labors being satisfactory to them. Madison's speech is the last one reported by Yates.--Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc.

M^r Butler said he could not let down his idea of the people, of America so far as to believe they would from mere respect to the Convention adopt a plan evidently unjust. He did not consider the privilege concerning money bills as of any consequence. He urged that the 2^d branch ought to represent the States according to their property.

M^r Gov^r Morris, thought the form as well as the matter of the Report objectionable. It seemed in the first place to render amendments impracticable. In the next place, it seemed to involve a pledge to agree to the 2^d part if the 1^{st} sh^d be agreed to. He conceived the whole aspect of it to be wrong. He came here as a Representative of America; he flattered himself he came here in some degree as a Representative of the whole human race; for the whole human race will be affected by the proceedings of this Convention. He wished gentlemen to extend their views beyond the present moment of time; beyond the narrow limits of place from which they derive their political origin. If he were to believe some things which he had heard, he should suppose that we were assembled to truck and bargain for our particular States. He can not descend to think that any gentlemen are really actuated by these views. We must look forward to the effects of what we do. These alone ought to guide us. Much has been said of the sentiments of the people. They were unknown. They could not be known. All that we can infer is that if the plan we recommend be reasonable & right; all Who have reasonable minds and sound intentions will embrace it, notwithstanding what had been said by some gentlemen. Let us suppose that the larger States shall agree; and that the smaller refuse; and let us trace the consequences. The opponents of the system in the smaller States will no doubt make a party, and a noise for a time, but the ties of interest, of kindred & of common habits which connect them with other States will be too strong to be easily broken. In N. Jersey particularly he was sure a great many would follow the sentiments of Pen^a & N. York. This Country must be united. If persuasion does not unite it, the sword will. He begged that this consideration might have its due weight. The scenes of horror attending Civil commotion cannot be described, and the conclusion of them will be worse than the term of their continuance. The stronger party will then make traytors of the weaker; and the Gallows & Halter will finish the work of the sword. How far foreign powers would be ready to take part in the confusions he would not say. Threats that they will be invited have it seems been thrown out. He drew the melancholy picture of foreign intrusions as exhibited in the History of Germany, & urged it as a standing lesson to other nations. He trusted that the Gentlemen who may have hazarded such expressions, did not entertain them till they reached their own lips. But returning to the Report he could not think it in any respect calculated for the Public good. As the 2^d branch is now constituted, there will be constant disputes & appeals to the States which will undermine the Gen^l Government & controul & annihilate the 1^{st} branch. Suppose that the delegates from Mass^{ts} & Rho I. in the Upper House disagree, and that the former are outvoted. What Results? they will immediately declare that their State will not abide by the decision, and make such representations as will produce that effect. The same may happen as to Virg^a & other States. Of what avail then will be what is on paper. State attachments, and State importance have been the bane of this Country. We cannot annihilate; but we may perhaps take out the teeth of the serpents. He wished our ideas to be enlarged to the true interest of man, instead of being circumscribed within the narrow compass of a particular Spot. And after all how little can be the motive yielded by selfishness for such a policy. Who can say whether he himself, much less whether his children, will the next year be an inhabitant of this or that State.

M^r Bedford. He found that what he had said as to the small States being taken by the hand, had been misunderstood; and he rose to explain. He did not mean that the small States would court the aid & interposition of foreign powers. He meant that they would not consider the federal compact as dissolved untill it should be so by the Acts of the large States. In this case The consequences of the breach of faith on their part, and the readiness of the small States to fulfill their engagements, would be that foreign Nations having demands on this Country would find it their interest to take the small States by the hand, in order to do themselves justice. This was what he meant. But no man can foresee to what extremities the small States may be driven by oppression. He observed also in apology that some allowance ought to be made for the habits of his profession in which warmth was natural & sometimes necessary. But is there not an apology in what was said by (M^r Gov^r Morris) that the sword is to unite: by M^r Ghorum that Delaware must be annexed to Penn^a and N. Jersey divided between Pen^a and N. York. To hear such language without emotion, would be to renounce the feelings of a man and the duty of a Citizen--As to the propositions of the Committee, the lesser States have thought it necessary to have a security somewhere. This has been thought necessary for the Executive Magistrate of the proposed Gov^t who has a sort of negative on the laws; and is it not of more importance that the States should be protected, than that the Executive branch of the Gov^t sh^d be protected. In order to obtain this, the smaller States have conceded as to the constitution of the first branch, and as to money bills. If they be not gratified by correspondent concessions as to the 2^d branch is it to be supposed they will ever accede to the plan; and what will be the consequence if nothing should be done? The condition of the U. States requires that something should be immediately done. It will be better that a defective plan should be adopted, than that none should be recommended. He saw no reason why defects might not be supplied with meetings 10, 15, or 20 years hence.

M^r Elseworth said he had not attended the proceedings of the Committee, but was ready to accede to the compromise they had reported. Some compromise was necessary; and he saw none more convenient or reasonable.

M^r Williamson hoped that the expressions of individuals would not be taken for the sense of their colleagues, much less of their States which was not & could not be known. He hoped also that the meaning of those expressions would not be misconstrued or exaggerated. He did not conceive that (M^r Gov^r Morris) meant that the sword ought to be drawn ag^{st} the smaller States. He only pointed out the probable consequences of anarchy in the U. S. A similar exposition ought to be given of the expressions of (M^r Ghorum). He was ready to hear the Report discussed; but thought the propositions contained in it, the most objectionable of any he had yet heard.

M^r Patterson said that he had when the Report was agreed to in the Com^e reserved to himself the right of freely discussing it. He acknowledged that the warmth complained of was improper; but he thought the Sword & the Gallows little calculated to produce conviction. He complained of the manner in which M^r M and M^r Gov^r Morris had treated the small States.

M^r Gerry. Tho' he had assented to the Report in the Committee, he had very material objections to it. We were however in a peculiar situation. We were neither the same Nation nor different Nations. We ought not therefore to pursue the one or the other of these ideas too closely. If no compromise should take place what will be the consequence. A secession he foresaw would take place; for some gentlemen seem decided on it: two different plans will be proposed; and the result no man could foresee. If we do not come to some agreement among ourselves some foreign sword will probably do the work for us.

M^r Mason. The Report was meant not as specific propositions to be adopted; but merely as a general ground of accommodation. There must be some accommodation on this point, or we shall make little further progress in the work. Accommodation was the object of the House in the appointment of the Committee; and of the Committee in the Report they had made. And however liable the Report might be to objections, he thought it preferable to an appeal to the world by the different sides, as had been talked of by some Gentlemen. It could not be more inconvenient to any gentleman to remain absent from his private affairs, than it was for him; but he would bury his bones in this City rather than expose his Country to the Consequences of a dissolution of the Convention without any thing being done.

The 1^{st} proposition in the report for fixing the representation in the 1^{st} branch, "one member for every 40,000 inhabitants," being taken up.

M^r Gov^r Morris objected to that scale of apportionment. He thought property ought to be taken into the estimate as well as the number of inhabitants. Life & liberty were generally said to be of more value than property. An accurate view of the matter would nevertheless prove that property was the main object of Society. The Savage State was more favorable to liberty than the Civilized; and sufficiently so to life. It was preferred by all men who had not acquired a taste for property; it was only renounced for the sake of property which could only be secured by the restraints of regular Government. These ideas might appear to some new, but they were nevertheless just. If property then was the main object of Gov^t certainly it ought to be one measure of the influence due to those who were to be affected by the Govern^t. He looked forward also to that range of New States which w^d soon be formed in the West. He thought the rule of representation ought to be so fixed as to secure to the Atlantic States a prevalence in the National Councils. The new States will know less of the public interest than these, will have an interest in many respects different, in particular will be little scrupulous of involving the Community in wars the burdens & operations of which would fall chiefly on the maritime States. Provision ought therefore to be made to prevent the maritime States from being hereafter outvoted by them. He thought this might be easily done by irrevocably fixing the number of representatives which the Atlantic States should respectively have, and the number which each new State will have. This w^d not be unjust, as the Western settlers w^d previously know the conditions on which they were to possess their lands. It would be politic as it would reco[~m]end the plan to the present as well as future interest of the States which must decide the fate of it.

M^r Rutlidge. The gentleman last up had spoken some of his sentiments precisely. Property was certainly the principal object of Society. If numbers should be made the rule of representation, the Atlantic States will be subjected to the Western. He moved that the first proposition in the report be postponed in order to take up the following viz "that the suffrages of the several States be regulated and proportioned according to the sums to be paid towards the general revenue by the inhabitants of each State respectively: that an apportionment of suffrages, according to the ratio aforesaid shall be made and regulated at the end of ---- years from the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature of the U. S., and at the end of every ---- years but that for the present, and until the period above mentioned, the suffrages shall be for N. Hampshire ---- for Massach^{ts} ---- &c.

Col. Mason said the case of new States was not unnoticed in the Committee; but it was thought and he was himself decidedly of opinion that if they made a part of the Union, they ought to be subject to no unfavorable discriminations. Obvious considerations required it.

M^r Randolph concurred with Col. Mason.

On Question on M^r Rutlidges motion,

Mas^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. Mary^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. not on floor.

FRIDAY JULY 6^{TH} IN CONVENTION

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to commit so much of the Report as relates to "1 member for every 40,000 inhabitants." His view was that they might absolutely fix the number for each State in the first instance; leaving the Legislature at liberty to provide for changes in the relative importance of the States, and for the case of new States.

M^r Wilson 2^{ded} the motion; but with a view of leaving the Committee under no implied shackles.

M^r Ghorum apprehended great inconveniency from fixing directly the number of Representatives to be allowed to each State. He thought the number of Inhabitants the true guide; tho' perhaps some departure might be expedient from the full proportion. The States also would vary in their relative extent by separations of parts of the largest States. A part of Virg^a is now on the point of a separation. In the province of Mayne a Convention is at this time deliberating on a separation from Mas^{ts}. In such events the number of representatives ought certainly to be reduced. He hoped to see all the States made small by proper divisions, instead of their becoming formidable as was apprehended, to the Small States. He conceived that let the Gen^l Government be modified as it might, there would be a constant tendency in the State Governm^{ts} to encroach upon it: it was of importance therefore that the extent of the States sh^d be reduced as much & as fast as possible. The stronger the Gov^t shall be made in the first instance the more easily will these divisions be effected; as it will be of less consequence in the opinion of the States whether they be of great or small extent.

M^r Gerry did not think with his Colleague that the large States ought to be cut up. This policy has been inculcated by the middling and smaller States, ungenerously & contrary to the spirit of the Confederation. Ambitious men will be apt to solicit needless divisions, till the States be reduced to the size of Counties. If this policy should still actuate the small States, the large ones cou'd not confederate safely with them; but would be obliged to consult their safety by confederating only with one another. He favored the commitment and thought that Representation ought to be in the Combined ratio of numbers of Inhabitants and of wealth, and not of either singly.

M^r King wished the clause to be committed, chiefly in order to detach it from the Report with which it had no connection. He thought also that the Ratio of Representation proposed could not be safely fixed, since in a century & a half our computed increase of population would carry the number of representatives to an enormous excess; that y^e number of inhabitants was not the proper index of ability & wealth; that property was the primary object of Society; and that in fixing a ratio this ought not to be excluded from the estimate.--With regard to new States, he observed that there was something peculiar in the business which had not been noticed. The U. S. were now admitted to be proprietors of the Country N. West of the Ohio. Cong^s by one of their ordinances have impoliticly laid it out into ten States, and have made it a fundamental article of compact with those who may become settlers, that as soon as the number in any one state shall equal that of the smallest of the 13 original States, it may claim admission into the Union. Delaware does not contain it is computed more than 35,000 souls, and for obvious reasons will not increase much for a considerable time. It is possible then that if this plan be persisted in by Cong^s 10 new votes may be added, without a greater addition of inhabitants than are represented by the single vote of Pen^a. The plan as it respects one of the new States is already irrevocable, the sale of the lands having commenced, and the purchasers & settlers will immediately become entitled to all the privileges of the compact.

M^r Butler agreed to the Commitment if the Committee were to be left at liberty. He was persuaded that the more the subject was examined, the less it would appear that the number of inhabitants would be a proper rule of proportion. If there were no other objection the changeableness of the standard would be sufficient. He concurred with those who thought some balance was necessary between the old & the new States. He contended strenuously that property was the only just measure of representation. This was the great object of Govern^t; the great cause of war; the great means of carrying it on.

M^r Pinkney saw no good reason for committing. The value of land had been found on full investigation to be an impracticable rule. The contributions of revenue including imports & exports must be too changeable in their amount; too difficult to be adjusted; and too injurious to the non-commercial States. The number of inhabitants appeared to him the only just & practicable rule. He thought the blacks ought to stand on an equality with the whites: But w^d agree to the ratio settled by Cong^s. He contended that Cong^s had no right under the articles of Confederation to authorize the admission of new States; no such case having been provided for.

M^r Davy was for committing the clause in order to get at the merits of the question arising on the Report. He seemed to think that wealth or property ought to be represented in the 2^d branch; and numbers in the 1^{st} branch.

On the Motion for committing as made by M^r Gov^r Morris,

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The members app^d by Ballot were M^r Gov^r Morris, M^r Gorham, M^r Randolph, M^r Rutlidge, M^r King.

M^r Wilson signified that his view in agreeing to the co[~m]itm^t was that the Com^e might consider the propriety of adopting a scale similar to that established by the Constitution of Mass^{ts} which w^d give an advantage to y^e small States without substantially departing from the rule of proportion.

M^r Wilson & M^r Mason moved to postpone the clause relating to money bills in order to take up the clause relating to an equality of votes in the Second branch.

On the question Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The clause relating to equality of votes being under consideration,

Doc^r Franklin observed that this question could not be properly put by itself, the Co[~m]ittee having reported several propositions as mutual conditions of each other. He could not vote for it if separately taken, but should vote for the whole together.

Col. Mason perceived the difficulty & suggested a reference of the rest of the Report to y^e Committee just appointed, that the whole might be brought into one view.

M^r Randolph disliked y^e reference to that Committee, as it consisted of members from States opposed to the wishes of the smaller States, and could not therefore be acceptable to the latter.

M^r Martin & M^r Jenifer moved to postpone the clause till the Com^e last appointed sh^d report.

M^r Madison observed that if the uncommitted part of the Report was connected with the part just committed, it ought also to be committed; if not connected, it need not be postponed till report should be made.

On the question for postponing, moved by M^r Martin & M^r Jenifer,--Con^t N. J. Del. M^d V^a Geo. ay. P^a N. C. S. C. no. Mass. N. Y. divided.

The 1^{st} clause relating to the originating of money bills was then resumed.

M^r Govern^r Morris was opposed to a restriction of this right in either branch, considered merely in itself and as unconnected with the point of representation in the 2^d branch. It will disable the 2^d branch from proposing its own money plans, and giving the people an opportunity of judging by comparison of the merits of those proposed by the 1^{st} branch.

M^r Wilson could see nothing like a concession here on the part of the smaller States. If both branches were to say yes or no, it was of little consequence which should say yes or no first, which last. If either was indiscriminately to have the right of originating, the reverse of the Report, would he thought be most proper; since it was a maxim that the least numerous body was the fittest for deliberation; the most numerous for decision. He observed that this discrimination had been transcribed from the British into several American constitutions. But he was persuaded that on examination of the American experiments it would be found to be a trifle light as air. Nor could he ever discover the advantage of it in the Parliamentary history of G. Britain. He hoped if there was any advantage in the privilege, that it would be pointed out.

M^r Williamson thought that if the privilege were not common to both branches it ought rather to be confined to the 2^d as the bills in that case would be more narrowly watched, than if they originated with the branch having most of the popular confidence.

M^r Mason. The consideration which weighed with the Committee was that the 1^{st} branch would be the immediate representatives of the people, the 2^d would not. Should the latter have the power of giving away the people's money, they might soon forget the source from whence they received it. We might soon have an aristocracy. He had been much concerned at the principles which had been advanced by some gentlemen, but had the satisfaction to find they did not generally prevail. He was a friend to proportional representation in both branches; but supposed that some points must be yielded for the sake of accomodation.

M^r Wilson. If he had proposed that the 2^d branch should have an independent disposal of public money, the observations of (Col. Mason) would have been a satisfactory answer. But nothing could be farther from what he had said. His question was how is the power of the 1^{st} branch increased or that of the 2^d diminished by giving the proposed privilege to the former? Where is the difference, in which branch it begins, if both must concur, in the end?

M^r Gerry would not say that the concession was a sufficient one on the part of the small States. But he could not but regard it in the light of a concession. It w^d make it a constitutional principle that the 2^d branch were not possessed of the Confidence of the people in money matters, which w^d lessen their weight & influence. In the next place if the 2^d branch were dispossessed of the privilege, they w^d be deprived of the opportunity which their continuance in office 3 times as long as the 1^{st} branch would give them of making three successive essays in favor of a particular point.

M^r Pinkney thought it evident that the Concession was wholly on one side, that of the large States, the privilege of originating money bills being of no account.

M^r Gov^r Morris had waited to hear the good effects of the restriction. As to the alarm sounded, of an aristocracy, his creed was that there never was, nor ever will be a civilized Society without an aristocracy. His endeavor was to keep it as much as possible from doing mischief. The restriction if it has any real operation, will deprive us of the services of the 2^d branch in digesting & proposing money bills of which it will be more capable than the 1^{st} branch. It will take away the responsibility of the 2^d branch, the great security for good behavior. It will always leave a plea, as to an obnoxious money bill that it was disliked, but could not be constitutionally amended; nor safely rejected. It will be a dangerous source of disputes between the two Houses. We should either take the British Constitution altogether or make one for ourselves. The Executive there has dissolved two Houses as the only cure for such disputes. Will our Executive be able to apply such a remedy? Every law directly or indirectly takes money out of the pockets of the people. Again What use may be made of such a privilege in case of great emergency? Suppose an Enemy at the door, and money instantly & absolutely necessary for repelling him, may not the popular branch avail itself of this duress, to extort concessions from the Senate destructive of the Constitution itself. He illustrated this danger by the example of the Long Parliament's exped^{ts} for subverting the H. of Lords; concluding on the whole that the restriction would be either useless or pernicious.

Doc^r Franklin did not mean to go into a justification of the Report, but as it had been asked what would be the use of restraining the 2^d branch from medling with money bills, he could not but remark that it was always of importance that the people should know who had disposed of their money, & how it had been disposed of. It was a maxim that those who feel, can best judge. This end would, he thought, be best attained, if money affairs were to be confined to the immediate representatives of the people. This was his inducement to concur in the report. As to the danger or difficulty that might arise from a Negative in the 2^d where the people w^d not be proportionately represented, it might easily be got over by declaring that there should be no such negative; or if that will not do, by declaring that there shall be no such branch at all.

M^r Martin said that it was understood in the Committee that the difficulties and disputes which had been apprehended, should be guarded ag^{st} in the detailing of the plan.

M^r Wilson. The difficulties & disputes will increase with the attempts to define & obviate them. Queen Anne was obliged to dissolve her Parliam^t in order to terminate one of these obstinate disputes between the two Houses. Had it not been for the mediation of the Crown, no one can say what the result would have been. The point is still sub judice in England. He approved of the principles laid down by the Honble President (Doct^r Franklin) his Colleague, as to the expediency of keeping the people informed of their money affairs. But thought they would know as much, and be as well satisfied, in one way as in the other.

Article X (part 4)

Gen^l Pinkney was astonished that this point should have been considered as a concession. He remarked that the restriction to money bills had been rejected on the merits singly considered, by 8 States ag^{st} 3. and that the very States which now called it a concession, were then ag^{st} it as nugatory or improper in itself.

On the Question whether the clause relating to money bills in the Report of the Com^e consisting of a member from each State, sh^d stand as part of the Report

Mass^{ts} divid^d Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. div^d

A Question was then raised whether the question was carried in the affirmative; there being but 5 ays out of 11. States present. The words of the rule are (see May 28).

On this question: Mas. Con^t N. J. P^a Del. M^d N. C. S. C. Geo. ay. N. Y. V^a no

(In several preceding instances like votes had sub silentio been entered as decided in the affirmative.)

Adjourned

SATURDAY, JULY 7. IN CONVENTION.

"Shall the clause allowing each State one vote in the 2^d branch, stand as part of the Report,"? being taken up--

M^r Gerry. This is the critical question. He had rather agree to it than have no accommodation. A Govern^t short of a proper national plan, if generally acceptable, would be preferable to a proper one which if it could be carried at all, would operate on discontented States. He thought it would be best to suspend the question till the Comm^e yesterday appointed, should make report.

M^r Sherman Supposed that it was the wish of every one that some Gen^l Gov^t should be established. An equal vote in the 2^d branch would, he thought, be most likely to give it the necessary vigor. The small States have more vigor in their Gov^{ts} than the large ones, the more influence therefore the large ones have, the weaker will be the Gov^t. In the large States it will be most difficult to collect the real & fair sense of the people. Fallacy & undue influence will be practised with most success; and improper men will most easily get into office. If they vote by States in the 2^d branch, and each State has an equal vote, there must be always a majority of States as well as a majority of the people on the side of public measures, & the Gov^t will have decision and efficacy. If this be not the case in the 2^d branch there may be a majority of States ag^{st} public measures, and the difficulty of compelling them to abide by the public determination, will render the Government feebler than it has ever yet been.

M^r Wilson was not deficient in a conciliating temper, but firmness was sometimes a duty of higher obligation. Conciliation was also misapplied in this instance. It was pursued here rather among the Representatives, than among the Constituents; and it w^d be of little consequence if not established among the latter; and there could be little hope of its being established among them if the foundation should not be laid in justice and right.

On Question shall the words stand as part of the Report?

Mass^{ts} div^d. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J, ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. div^d

(Note. several votes were given here in the affirmative or were div^d because another final question was to be taken on the whole report.)

M^r Gerry[127] thought it would be proper to proceed to enumerate & define the powers to be vested in the Gen^l Gov^t before a question on the report should be taken as to the rule of representation in the 2^d branch.

[127] King gives the three speeches of Gerry, Madison and Patterson as follows:

"Gerry. I agree to the measure, provided that the first Br. (H. of Reps.) shall originate money bills and money appropriations. The prejudices as well as the interest of our Constituents must be regarded--two or three thousand men are in office in the States--their influence will be in favor of an Equality of votes among the States.

"Madison. Equality in the Senate will enable a minority to hold a majority, and to oblige them to submit to their interests, or they will withdraw their assent to measures essential and necessary to the general Good. I have known one man, when the State was represented by only two, and they were divided, oppose six States in Congress on an important occasion for three days, and finally compel them to gratify his caprice in order to obtain his suffrage. The Senate will possess certain exclusive Powers, such as the appointments to office, if the States have equal votes; a minority of People will appoint the Great Offices. Besides the small States may be near the Seat of Govt.--a bare Quorum of the H. of R. may be easily assembled, and carry a bill against the sense of a majority if all were present, and the Senate, tho' all were present, might confirm such Bill. Virginia has objected to every addition of the powers of Congress, because she has only 1/13 of the Power when she ought to have one sixth.

"Paterson. I hope the question will be taken: if we do not give equal votes in the Senate to the States, the small States agreeing that money Bills and appropriations shall originate in the H. of Reps., elected according to numbers, it must not be expected that the small States will agree to the amendments of the Confederation. Let us decide this question and lose no more time. I think that I shall vote against the provision, because I think that the exclusive originating of money Bills & appropriations by the H. of Reps. is giving up too much on the part of the small States."--King's Life and Correspondence of Rufus King, I., 613.

M^r Madison, observed that it w^d be impossible to say what powers could be safely & properly vested in the Gov^t before it was known, in what manner the States were to be represented in it. He was apprehensive that if a just representation were not the basis of the Gov^t it would happen, as it did when the Articles of Confederation were depending, that every effectual prerogative would be withdrawn or withheld, and the New Gov^t w^d be rendered as impotent and as shortlived as the old.

M^r Patterson would not decide whether the privilege concerning money bills were a valuable consideration or not: But he considered the mode & rule of representation in the 1^{st} branch as fully so; and that after the establishment of that point, the small States would never be able to defend themselves without an equality of votes in the 2^d branch. There was no other ground of accommodation. His resolution was fixt. He would meet the large States on that ground and no other. For himself he should vote ag^{st} the Report, because it yielded too much.

M^r Gov^r Morris. He had no resolution unalterably fixed except to do what should finally appear to him right. He was ag^{st} the Report because it maintained the improper constitution of the 2^d branch. It made it another Congress, a mere whisp of straw. It had been s^d (by M^r Gerry) that the new Govern^t would be partly national, partly federal; that it ought in the first quality to protect individuals; in the second, the States. But in what quality was it to protect the aggregate interest of the whole. Among the many provisions which had been urged, he had seen none for supporting the dignity and splendor of the American Empire. It had been one of our greatest misfortunes that the great objects of the nation had been sacrificed constantly to local views; in like manner as the general interests of States had been sacrificed to those of the Counties. What is to be the check in the Senate? none; unless it be to keep the majority of the people from injuring particular States. But particular States ought to be injured for the sake of a majority of the people, in case their conduct should deserve it. Suppose they should insist on claims evidently unjust, and pursue them in a manner detrimental to the whole body. Suppose they should give themselves up to foreign influence. Ought they to be protected in such cases. They were originally nothing more than colonial corporations. On the declaration of Independence, a Governm^t was to be formed. The small States aware of the necessity of preventing anarchy, and taking advantage of the moment, extorted from the large ones an equality of votes. Standing now on that ground, they demand under the new system greater rights as men, than their fellow Citizens of the large States. The proper answer to them is that the same necessity of which they formerly took advantage, does not now exist, and that the large States are at liberty now to consider what is right, rather than what may be expedient. We must have an efficient Gov^t and if there be an efficiency in the local Gov^{ts} the former is impossible. Germany alone proves it. Notwithstanding their common diet, notwithstanding the great prerogatives of the Emperor as head of the Empire, and his vast resources, as sovereign of his particular dominions, no union is maintained; foreign influence disturbs every internal operation, & there is no energy whatever in the General Governm^t. Whence does this proceed? From the energy of the local authorities; from its being considered of more consequence to support the Prince of Hesse, than the Happiness of the people of Germany. Do Gentlemen wish this to be y^e case here. Good God, Sir, is it possible they can so delude themselves. What if all the Charters & Constitutions of the States were thrown into the fire, and all their demagogues into the Ocean. What would it be to the happiness of America. And will not this be the case here if we pursue the train in w^{ch} the business lies. We shall establish an Aulic Council without an Emperor to execute its decrees. The same circumstances which unite the people here, unite them in Germany. They have there a common language, a common law, common usages and manners, and a common interest in being united; Yet their local jurisdictions destroy every tie. The case was the same in the Grecian States. The United Netherlands are at this time torn in factions. With these examples before our eyes shall we form establishments which must necessarily produce the same effects. It is of no consequence from what districts the 2^d branch shall be drawn, if it be so constituted as to yield an asylum ag^{st} these evils. As it is now constituted he must be ag^{st} its being drawn from the States in equal portions. But still he was ready to join in devising such an amendment of the plan, as will be most likely to secure our liberty & happiness.

M^r Sherman & M^r Elseworth moved to postpone the Question on the Report from the Committee of a member from each State, in order to wait for the Report from the Com^e of 5 last appointed.

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. Maryland ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Adj^d.

MONDAY JULY 9^{TH} IN CONVENTION.

M^r Daniel Carroll, from Maryland took his seat.

M^r Gov^r Morris delivered a report from the Com^e of 5 members to whom was committed the clause in the Report of the Com^e consisting of a member from each State, stating the proper ratio of Representatives in the 1^{st} branch, to be as 1 to every 40,000 inhabitants, as follows viz

"The Committee to whom was referred the 1^{st} clause of the 1^{st} proposition reported from the grand Committee, beg leave to report:

I. that in the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature the 1^{st} branch thereof consist of 56. members of which Number N. Hampshire shall have 2, Mass^{ts} 7, R. I^d 1, Con^t 4, N. Y. 5, N. J. 3, P^a 8, Del. 1, M^d 4, V^a 9, N. C. 5, S. C. 5, Geo. 2.

II. But as the present situation of the States may probably alter as well in point of wealth as in the number of their inhabitants, that the Legislature be authorized from time to time to augment y^e number of Representatives. And in case any of the States shall hereafter be divided, or any two or more States united, or any new States created within the limits of the United States, the Legislature shall possess authority to regulate the number of Representatives in any of the foregoing cases, upon the principles of their wealth and number of inhabitants."

M^r Sherman wished to know on what principles or calculations the Report was founded. It did not appear to correspond with any rule of numbers, or of any requisition hitherto adopted by Cong^s

M^r Gorham. Some provision of this sort was necessary in the outset. The number of blacks & whites with some regard to supposed wealth was the general guide. Fractions could not be observed. The Legisl^{re} is to make alterations from time to time as justice & propriety may require. Two objections prevailed ag^{st} the rate of 1 member for every 40,000 inh^{ts}. The 1^{st} was that the Representation would soon be too numerous: the 2^d that the West^n States who may have a different interest, might if admitted on that principle by degrees, outvote the Atlantic. Both these objections are removed. The number will be small in the first instance and may be continued so. And the Atlantic States having y^e Gov^t in their own hands, may take care of their own interest, by dealing out the right of Representation in safe proportions to the Western States. These were the views of the Committee.

M^r L. Martin wished to know whether the Com^e were guided in the ratio, by the wealth or number of inhabitants, of the States, or by both; noting its variations from former apportionments by Cong^s

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Rutlidge moved to postpone the 1^{st} paragraph relating to the number of members to be allowed each State in the first instance, and to take up the 2^d paragraph authorizing the Legisl^{re} to alter the number from time to time according to wealth & inhabitants. The motion was agreed to nem. con.

On Question on the 2^d parag^h taken without any debate

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Sherman moved to refer the 1^{st} part apportioning the Representatives, to a Comm^e of a member from each State.

M^r Gov^r Morris seconded the motion; observing that this was the only case in which such committees were useful.

M^r Williamson thought it would be necessary to return to the rule of numbers, but that the Western States stood on different footing. If their property shall be rated as high as that of the Atlantic States, then their representation ought to hold a like proportion. Otherwise if their property was not to be equally rated.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The Report is little more than a guess. Wealth was not altogether disregarded by the Com^e. Where it was apparently in favor of one State, whose n^{os} were superior to the numbers of another, by a fraction only, a member extraordinary was allowed to the former: and so vice versa. The Committee meant little more than to bring the matter to a point for the consideration of the House.

M^r Reed asked why Georgia was allowed 2 members, when her number of inhabitants had stood below that of Delaware.

M^r Gov^r Morris. Such is the rapidity of the population of that State, that before the plan takes effect, it will probably be entitled to 2 Representatives.

M^r Randolph, disliked the Report of the Com^e but had been unwilling to object to it. He was apprehensive that as the number was not be changed, till the Nat^l Legislature should please, a pretext would never be wanting to postpone alterations, and keep the power in the hands of those possessed of it. He was in favor of the Commitm^t to a member from each State.

M^r Patterson considered the proposed estimate for the future according to the combined rules of numbers and wealth, as too vague. For this reason N. Jersey was ag^{st} it. He could regard negroes slaves in no light but as property. They are no free agents, have no personal liberty, no faculty of acquiring property, but on the contrary are themselves property, & like other property entirely at the will of the Master. Has a man in Virg^a a number of votes in proportion to the number of his slaves? And if negroes are not represented in the States to which they belong, why should they be represented in the Gen^l Gov^t. What is the true principle of Representation? It is an expedient by which an assembly of certain individ^{ls} chosen by the people is substituted in place of the inconvenient meeting of the people themselves. If such a meeting of the people was actually to take place, would the slaves vote? They would not. Why then sh^d they be represented. He was also ag^{st} such an indirect encouragem^t of the slave trade; observing that Cong^s in their act relating to the change of the 8 art: of Confed^n had been ashamed to use the term "slaves" & had substituted a description.

M^r Madison reminded M^r Patterson that his doctrine of Representation which was in its principle the genuine one, must forever silence the pretensions of the small States to an equality of votes with the large ones. They ought to vote in the same proportion in which their Citizens would do, if the people of all the States were collectively met. He suggested as a proper ground of compromise, that in the first branch the States should be represented according to their number of free inhabitants; And in the 2^d which had for one of its primary objects the guardianship of property, according to the whole number, including slaves.

M^r Butler urged warmly the justice & necessity of regarding wealth in the apportionment of Representation.

M^r King had always expected that as the Southern States are the richest, they would not league themselves with the North^n unless some respect were paid to their superior wealth. If the latter expect those preferential distinctions in Commerce, & other advantages which they will derive from the connexion they must not expect to receive them without allowing some advantages in return. Eleven out of 13 of the States had agreed to consider Slaves in the apportionment of taxation; and taxation and Representation ought to go together.

On the question for committing the first paragraph of the Report to a member from each State

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The Com^e appointed were M^r King, M^r Sherman, M^r Yates, M^r Brearly, M^r Gov^r Morris, M^r Reed, M^r Carrol, M^r Madison, M^r Williamson, M^r Rutlidge, M^r Houston.

Adj^d.

TUESDAY JULY 10. IN CONVENTION.

M^r King reported from the Com^e yesterday appointed that the States at the 1^{st} meeting of the General Legislature, should be represented by 65 members, in the following proportions, to wit N. Hampshire by 3, Mass^{ts} 8, R. Is^d 1, Con^t 5, N. Y. 6, N. J. 4, P^a 8, Del. 1, M^d 6, V^a 10, N. C. 5, S. C. 5, Georgia 3.

M^r Rutlidge moved that N. Hampshire be reduced from 3 to 2. members. Her numbers did not entitle her to 3 and it was a poor State.

Gen^l Pinkney seconds the motion.

M^r King. N. Hampshire has probably more than 120,000 Inhab^{ts} and has an extensive Country of tolerable fertility. Its inhab^{ts} therefore may be expected to increase fast. He remarked that the four Eastern States, having 800,000 souls, have 1/3 fewer representatives than the four Southern States, having not more than 700,000 souls, rating the blacks as 5 for 3. The Eastern people will advert to these circumstances, and be dissatisfied. He believed them to be very desirous of uniting with their Southern brethren, but did not think it prudent to rely so far on that disposition as to subject them to any gross inequality. He was fully convinced that the question concerning a difference of interests did not lie where it had hitherto been discussed, between the great & small States; but between the Southern & Eastern. For this reason he had been ready to yield something in the proportion of representatives for the security of the Southern. No principle would justify the giving them a majority. They were brought as near an equality as was possible. He was not averse to giving them a still greater security, but did not see how it could be done.

Gen^l Pinkney. The Report before it was committed was more favorable to the S. States than as it now stands. If they are to form so considerable a minority, and the regulation of trade is to be given to the Gen^l Government, they will be nothing more than overseers for the Northern States. He did not expect the S. States to be raised to a majority of representatives, but wished them to have something like an equality. At present by the alterations of the Com^e in favor of the N. States they are removed farther from it than they were before. One member indeed had been added to Virg^a which he was glad of as he considered her as a Southern State. He was glad also that the members of Georgia were increased.

M^r Williamson was not for reducing N. Hampshire from 3 to 2, but for reducing some others. The South^n Interest must be extremely endangered by the present arrangement. The North^n States are to have a majority in the first instance and the means of perpetuating it.

M^r Dayton observed that the line between North^n & Southern interest had been improperly drawn; that P^a was the dividing State, there being six on each side of her.

Gen^l Pinkney urged the reduction, dwelt on the superior wealth of the Southern States, and insisted on its having its due weight in the Government.

M^r Gov^r Morris regretted the turn of the debate. The States he found had many Representatives on the floor. Few he fears were to be deemed the Representatives of America. He thought the Southern States have by the report more than their share of representation. Property ought to have its weight, but not all the weight. If the South^n States are to supply money. The North^n States are to spill their blood. Besides, the probable Revenue to be expected from the S. States has been greatly overrated. He was ag^{st} reducing N. Hampshire.

M^r Randolph was opposed to a reduction of N. Hampshire, not because she had a full title to three members; but because it was in his contemplation 1. to make it the duty instead of leaving it in the discretion of the Legislature to regulate the representation by a periodical census. 2. to require more than a bare majority of votes in the Legislature in certain cases & particularly in commercial cases.

On the question for reducing N. Hampshire from 3 to 2 Represent^s it passed in the negative

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.[128]

[128] In printed Journal. N. C. no. Geo. ay. Note in Madison's hand.

Gen^l Pinkney and M^r Alex^r Martin moved that 6 Rep^s instead of 5 be allowed to N. Carolina.

On the Question, it passed in the negative

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Gen^l Pinkney & M^r Butler made the same motion in favor of S. Carolina

On the Question it passed in the negative

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Gen^l Pinckney & M^r Houston moved that Georgia be allowed 4 instead of 3 Rep^s urging the unexampled celerity of its population. On the Question, it passed in the Negative

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison, moved that the number allowed to each State be doubled. A majority of a Quorum of 65 members, was too small a number to represent the whole inhabitants of the U. States; They would not possess enough of the confidence of the people, and w^d be too sparsely taken from the people, to bring with them all the local information which would be frequently wanted. Double the number will not be too great, even with the future additions from New States. The additional expence was too inconsiderable to be regarded in so important a case. And as far as the augmentation might be unpopular on that score, the objection was overbalanced by its effect on the hopes of a greater number of the popular candidates.

M^r Elseworth urged the objection of expence, & that the greater the number, the more slowly would the business proceed; and the less probably be decided as it ought, at last. He thought the number of Representatives too great in most of the State Legislatures; and that a large number was less necessary in the Gen^l Legislature than in those of the States, as its business would relate to a few great national Objects only.

M^r Sherman would have preferred 50 to 65. The great distance they will have to travel will render their attendance precarious and will make it difficult to prevail on a sufficient number of fit men to undertake the service. He observed that the expected increase from new States also deserved consideration.

M^r Gerry was for increasing the number beyond 65. The larger the number, the less the danger of their being corrupted. The people are accustomed to & fond of a numerous representation, and will consider their rights as better secured by it. The danger of excess in the number may be guarded ag^{st} by fixing a point within which the number shall always be kept.

Col. Mason admitted that the objection drawn from the consideration of expence, had weight both in itself, and as the people might be affected by it. But he thought it outweighed by the objections ag^{st} the smallness of the number. 38, will he supposes, as being a majority of 65. form a quorum. 20 will be a majority of 38. This was certainly too small a number to make laws for America. They would neither bring with them all the necessary information relative to various local interests, nor possess the necessary confidence of the people. After doubling the number, the laws might still be made by so few as almost to be objectionable on that account.

M^r Read was in favor of the Motion. Two of the States (Del. & R. I.) would have but a single member if the aggregate number should remain at 65. and in case of accident to either of these one State w^d have no representative present to give explanations or informations of its interests or wishes. The people would not place their confidence in so small a number. He hoped the objects of the Gen^l Gov^t would be much more numerous than seemed to be expected by some gentlemen, and that they would become more & more so. As to New States the highest number of Rep^s for the whole might be limited, and all danger of excess thereby prevented.

M^r Rutlidge opposed the motion. The Representatives were too numerous in all the States. The full number allotted to the States may be expected to attend, & the lowest possible quorum sh^d not therefore be considered. The interests of their Constituents will urge their attendance too strongly for it to be omitted: and he supposed the Gen^l Legislature would not sit more than 6 or 8 weeks in the year.

On the Question for doubling the number, it passed in the negative

Mas^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question for agreeing to the apportionment of Rep^s as amended by the last committee, it passed in the affirmative

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Broom gave notice to the House that he had concurred with a reserve to himself of an intention to claim for his State an equal voice in the 2^d branch; which he thought could not be denied after this concession of the small States as to the first branch.

M^r Randolph moved as an amendment to the report of the Comm^e of five "that in order to ascertain the alterations in the population & wealth of the several States the Legislature should be required to cause a census, and estimate to be taken within one year after its first meeting; and every ---- years thereafter, and that the Legisl^{re} arrange the Representation accordingly."

M^r Gov^r Morris opposed it as fettering the Legislature too much. Advantage may be taken of it in time of war or the apprehension of it, by new States to extort particular favors. If the mode was to be fixed for taking a Census, it might certainly be extremely inconvenient: if unfixt the Legislature may use such a mode as will defeat the object: and perpetuate the inequality. He was always ag^{st} such shackles on the Legisl^{re}. They had been found very pernicious in most of the State Constitutions. He dwelt much on the danger of throwing such a preponderancy into the Western Scale, suggesting that in time the Western people w^d outnumber the Atlantic States. He wished therefore to put it in the power of the latter to keep a majority of votes in their own hands. It was objected he said that if the Legisl^{re} are left at liberty, they will never readjust the Representation. He admitted that this was possible; but he did not think it probable unless the reasons ag^{st} a revision of it were very urgent & in this case, it ought not to be done.

It was moved to postpone the proposition of M^r Randolph in order to take up the following, viz. "that the Committee of Eleven, to whom was referred the report of the Committee of five on the subject of Representation, be requested to furnish the Convention with the principles on which they grounded the Report," which was disagreed to; S. C. alone voting in the affirmative.

Adjourned

WEDNESDAY JULY 11. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Randolph's motion requiring the Legisl^{re} to take a periodical census for the purpose of redressing inequalities in the Representation was resumed.

M^r Sherman was ag^{st}. Shackling the Legislature too much. We ought to choose wise & good men, and then confide in them.

M^r Mason. The greater the difficulty we find in fixing a proper rule of Representation, the more unwilling ought we to be, to throw the task from ourselves on the Gen^l Legisl^{re}. He did not object to the conjectural ratio which was to prevail in the outset; but considered a Revision from time to time according to some permanent & precise standard as essential to y^e fair representation required in the 1^{st} branch. According to the present population of America, the North^n part of it had a right to preponderate, and he could not deny it. But he wished it not to preponderate hereafter when the reason no longer continued. From the nature of man we may be sure that those who have power in their hands will not give it up while they can retain it. On the contrary we know that they will always when they can rather increase it. If the S. States therefore should have 3/4 of the people of America within their limits, the Northern will hold fast the majority of Representatives. 1/4 will govern the 3/4. The S. States will complain; but they may complain from generation to generation without redress. Unless some principle therefore which will do justice to them hereafter shall be inserted in the Constitution, disagreable as the declaration was to him, he must declare he could neither vote for the system here, nor support it, in his State. Strong objections had been drawn from the danger to the Atlantic interests from new Western States. Ought we to sacrifice what we know to be right in itself, lest it should prove favorable to States which are not yet in existence. If the Western States are to be admitted into the Union, as they arise, they must, he w^d repeat, be treated as equals, and subjected to no degrading discriminations. They will have the same pride & other passions which we have and will either not unite with or will speedily revolt from the Union, if they are not in all respects placed on an equal footing with their brethren. It has been said they will be poor, and unable to make equal contributions to the general Treasury. He did not know but that in time they would be both more numerous & more wealthy than their Atlantic brethren. The extent & fertility of their soil, made this probable; and though Spain might for a time deprive them of the natural outlet for their productions, yet she will, because she must, finally yield to their demands. He urged that numbers of inhabitants; though not always a precise standard of wealth was sufficiently so for every substantial purpose.

M^r Williamson was for making it a duty of the Legislature to do what was right & not leaving it at liberty to do or not to do it. He moved that M^r Randolph's propositions be postpon^d in order to consider the following "that in order to ascertain the alterations that may happen in the population & wealth of the several States, a census shall be taken of the free white inhabitants and 3/5^{ths} of those of other descriptions on the 1^{st} year after this Government shall have been adopted and every ---- year thereafter; and that the Representation be regulated accordingly."

M^r Randolph agreed that M^r Williamson's proposition should stand in the place of his. He observed that the ratio fixt for the 1^{st} meeting was a mere conjecture, that it placed the power in the hands of that part of America, which could not always be entitled to it, that this power would not be voluntarily renounced; and that it was consequently the duty of the Convention to secure its renunciation when justice might so require; by some constitutional provisions. If equality between great & small States be inadmissible, because in that case unequal numbers of Constituents w^d be represented by equal number of votes; was it not equally inadmissible that a larger & more populous district of America should hereafter have less representation, than a smaller & less populous district. If a fair representation of the people be not secured, the injustice of the Gov^t will shake it to its foundations. What relates to suffrage is justly stated by the celebrated Montesquieu, as a fundamental article in Republican Gov^t. If the danger suggested by M^r Gov^r Morris be real, of advantage being taken of the Legislature in pressing moments, it was an additional reason, for tying their hands in such a manner that they could not sacrifice their trust to momentary considerations. Cong^s have pledged the public faith to New States, that they shall be admitted on equal terms. They never would or ought to accede on any other. The census must be taken under the direction of the General Legislature. The States will be too much interested to take an impartial one for themselves.

M^r Butler & Gen^l Pinkney insisted that blacks be included in the rule of Representation equally with the whites; and for that purpose moved that the words "three-fifths" be struck out.

M^r Gerry thought that 3/5 of them was to say the least the full proportion that could be admitted.

M^r Ghorum. This ratio was fixed by Cong^s as a rule of taxation. Then it was urged by the Delegates representing the States having slaves that the blacks were still more inferior to freemen. At present when the ratio of representation is to be established, we are assured that they are equal to freemen. The arguments on y^e former occasion convinced him that 3/5 was pretty near the just proportion and he should vote according to the same opinion now.

M^r Butler insisted that the labour of a slave in S. Carol^a was as productive & valuable as that of a freeman in Mass^{ts}, that as wealth was the great means of defence and utility to the Nation they were equally valuable to it with freemen; and that consequently an equal representation ought to be allowed for them in a Government which was instituted principally for the protection of property, and was itself to be supported by property.

M^r Mason could not agree to the motion, notwithstanding it was favorable to Virg^a because he thought it unjust. It was certain that the slaves were valuable, as they raised the value of land, increased the exports & imports, and of course the revenue, would supply the means of feeding & supporting an army, and might in cases of emergency become themselves soldiers. As in these important respects they were useful to the Community at large, they ought not to be excluded from the estimate of Representation. He could not however regard them as equal to freemen and could not vote for them as such. He added as worthy of remark, that the Southern States have this peculiar species of property over & above the other species of property common to all the States.

M^r Williamson reminded M^r Ghorum that if the South^n States contended for the inferiority of blacks to whites when taxation was in view, the Eastern States on the same occasion contended for their equality. He did not however either then or now concur in either extreme, but approved of the ratio of 3/5.

On M^r Butler's motion for considering blacks as equal to Whites in the apportionm^t of Representation

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. (N. Y. not on floor). N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris said he had several objections to the proposition of M^r Williamson. 1. It fettered the Legislature too much. 2. it would exclude some States altogether who would not have a sufficient number to entitle them to a single Representative. 3. it will not consist with the Resolution passed on Saturday last authorizing the Legislature to adjust the Representation from time to time on the principles of population & wealth or with the principles of equity. If slaves were to be considered as inhabitants, not as wealth then the s^d Resolution would not be pursued. If as wealth, then why is no other wealth but slaves included? These objections may perhaps be removed by amendments. His great objection was that the number of inhabitants was not a proper standard of wealth. The amazing difference between the comparative numbers & wealth of different countries, rendered all reasoning superfluous on the subject. Numbers might with greater propriety be deemed a measure of strength, than of wealth, yet the late defence made by G. Britain, ag^{st} her numerous enemies proved in the clearest manner, that it is entirely fallacious even in this respect.

M^r King thought there was great force in the objections of M^r Gov^r Morris: he would however accede to the proposition for the sake of doing something.

M^r Rutlidge contended for the admission of wealth in the estimate by which Representation should be regulated. The Western States will not be able to contribute in proportion to their numbers; they sh^d not therefore be represented in that proportion. The Atlantic States will not concur in such a plan. He moved that "at the end of ---- years after the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature, and of every ---- years thereafter, the Legislature shall proportion the Representation according to the principles of wealth & population."

M^r Sherman thought the number of people alone the best rule for measuring wealth as well as representation; and that if the Legislature were to be governed by wealth, they would be obliged to estimate it by numbers. He was at first for leaving the matter wholly to the discretion of the Legislature; but he had been convinced by the observation of (M^r Randolph & M^r Mason), that the periods & the rule, of revising the Representation ought to be fixt by the Constitution.

M^r Reed thought the Legislature ought not to be too much shackled. It would make the Constitution like Religious Creeds, embarrassing to those bound to conform to them & more likely to produce dissatisfaction and scism, than harmony and union.

M^r Mason objected to M^r Rutlidge's motion, as requiring of the Legislature something too indefinite & impracticable, and leaving them a pretext for doing nothing.

M^r Wilson had himself no objection to leaving the Legislature entirely at liberty. But considered wealth as an impracticable rule.

M^r Ghorum. If the Convention who are comparatively so little biassed by local views are so much perplexed, How can it be expected that the Legislature hereafter under the full biass of those views, will be able to settle a standard. He was convinced by the arguments of others & his own reflections, that the Convention ought to fix some standard or other.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The arg^{ts} of others & his own reflections had led him to a very different conclusion. If we can't agree on a rule that will be just at this time, how can we expect to find one that will be just in all times to come. Surely those who come after us will judge better of things present, than we can of things future. He could not persuade himself that numbers would be a just rule at any time. The remarks of (M^r Mason) relative to the Western Country had not changed his opinion on that head. Among other objections it must be apparent they would not be able to furnish men equally enlightened, to share in the administration of our common interests. The Busy haunts of men not the remote wilderness, was the proper school of political Talents. If the Western people get the power into their hands they will ruin the Atlantic interests. The Back members are always most averse to the best measures. He mentioned the case of Pen^a formerly. The lower part of the State had y^e power in the first instance. They kept it in y^r own hands & the country was y^e better for it. Another objection with him ag^{st} admitting the blacks into the census, was that the people of Pen^a would revolt at the idea of being put on a footing with slaves. They would reject any plan that was to have such an effect. Two objections had been raised ag^{st} leaving the adjustment of the Representation from time, to time, to the discretion of the Legislature. The 1. was, they would be unwilling to revise it at all. The 2 that by referring to wealth they would be bound by a rule which if willing, they would be unable to execute. The 1^{st} obj^n distrusts their fidelity. But if their duty, their honor & their oaths will not bind them, let us not put into their hands our liberty, and all our other great interests; let us have no Gov^t at all. 2. If these ties will bind them, we need not distrust the practicability of the rule. It was followed in part by the Com^e in the apportionment of Representatives yesterday reported to the House. The best course that could be taken would be to leave the interests of the people to the Representatives of the people.

M^r Madison was not a little surprised to hear this implicit confidence urged by a member who on all occasions, had inculcated so strongly, the political depravity of men, and the necessity of checking one vice and interest by opposing to them another vice & interest. If the Representatives of the people would be bound by the ties he had mentioned, what need was there of a Senate? What of a Revisionary power? But his reasoning was not only inconsistent with his former reasoning, but with itself. At the same time that he recommended this implicit confidence to the Southern States in the Northern majority, he was still more zealous in exhorting all to a jealousy of a Western Majority. To reconcile the gentl^n with himself, it must be imagined that he determined the human character by the points of the compass. The truth was that all men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree. The case of Pen^a had been mentioned where it was admitted that those who were possessed of the power in the original settlement, never admitted the new settlem^{ts} to a due share of it. England was a still more striking example. The power there had long been in the hands of the boroughs, of the minority; who had opposed & defeated every reform which had been attempted. Virg^a was in a lesser degree another example. With regard to the Western States, he was clear & firm in opinion, that no unfavorable distinctions were admissible either in point of justice or policy. He thought also that the hope of contributions to the Treas^y from them had been much underrated. Future contributions it seemed to be understood on all hands would be principally levied on imports & exports. The extent and fertility of the Western Soil would for a long time give to agriculture a preference over manufactures. Trials would be repeated till some articles could be raised from it that would bear a transportation to places where they could be exchanged for imported manufactures. Whenever the Mississippi should be opened to them, which would of necessity be y^e case as soon as their population would subject them to any considerable share of the Public burden, imposts on their trade could be collected with less expence & greater certainty, than on that of the Atlantic States. In the mean time, as their supplies must pass through the Atlantic States, their contributions would be levied in the same manner with those of the Atlantic States. He could not agree that any substantial objection lay ag^{st} fix^g numbers for the perpetual standard of Representation. It was said that Representation & taxation were to go together; that taxation and wealth ought to go together, that population & wealth were not measures of each other. He admitted that in different climates, under different forms of Gov^t and in different stages of civilization the inference was perfectly just. He would admit that in no situation, numbers of inhabitants were an accurate measure of wealth. He contended however that in the U. States it was sufficiently so for the object in contemplation. Altho' their climate varied considerably, yet as the Gov^{ts} the laws, and the manners of all were nearly the same, and the intercourse between different parts perfectly free, population, industry, arts, and the value of labour, would constantly tend to equalize themselves. The value of labour might be considered as the principal criterion of wealth and ability to support taxes; and this would find its level in different places where the intercourse should be easy & free, with as much certainty as the value of money or any other thing. Wherever labour would yield most, people would resort, till the competition should destroy the inequality. Hence it is that the people are constantly swarming from the more to the less populous places--from Europe to Am^a--from the North^n & Middle parts of the U. S. to the Southern & Western. They go where land is cheaper, because there labour is dearer. If it be true that the same quantity of produce raised on the banks of the Ohio is of less value, than on the Delaware, it is also true that the same labor will raise twice or thrice, the quantity in the former, that it will raise in the latter situation.

Col. Mason. Agreed with M^r Gov^r Morris that we ought to leave the interests of the people to the Representatives of the people; but the objection was that the Legislature would cease to be the Representatives of the people. It would continue so no longer than the States now containing a majority of the people should retain that majority. As soon as the Southern & Western population should predominate, which must happen in a few years, the power w^d be in the hands of the minority, and would never be yielded to the majority, unless provided for by the Constitution.

On the Question for postponing M^r Williamson's motion, in order to consider that of M^r Rutlidge, it passed in the negative, Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question on the first clause of M^r Williamson's motion as to taking a census of the free inhabitants, it passed in the affirmative; Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

the next clause as to 3/5 of the negroes considered.

M^r King being much opposed to fixing numbers as the rule of representation, was particularly so on account of the blacks. He thought the admission of them along with Whites at all, would excite great discontents among the States having no slaves. He had never said as to any particular point that he would in no event acquiesce in & support it; but he w^d say that if any in case such a declaration was to be made by him, it would be in this. He remarked that in the temporary allotment of Representatives made by the Committee, the Southern States had received more than the number of their white & Three fifths of their black inhabitants entitled them to.

M^r Sherman. S. Carol^a had not more beyond her proportion than N. York & N. Hampshire, nor either of them more than was necessary in order to avoid fractions or reducing them below their proportions. Georgia had more; but the rapid growth of that State seemed to justify it. In general the allotment might not be just, but considering all circumstances, he was satisfied with it.

M^r Ghorum. supported the propriety of establishing numbers as the rule. He said that in Mass^{ts} estimates had been taken in the different towns, and that persons had been curious enough to compare these estimates with the respective numbers of people; and it had been found even including Boston, that the most exact proportion prevailed between numbers & property. He was aware that there might be some weight in what had fallen from his colleague, as to the umbrage which might be taken by the people of the Eastern States. But he recollected that when the proposition of Cong^s for changing the 8^{th} art: of the Confed^n was before the Legislature of Mass^{ts} the only difficulty then was to satisfy them that the negroes ought not to have been counted equally with whites instead of being counted in ratio of three-fifths only.[129]

[129] They were then to have been a rule of taxation only. Note in Madison's handwriting.

M^r Wilson did not well see on what principle the admission of blacks in the proportion of three fifths could be explained. Are they admitted as Citizens? then why are they not admitted on an equality with White Citizens? are they admitted as property? then why is not other property admitted into the computation? These were difficulties however which he thought must be overruled by the necessity of compromise. He had some apprehensions also from the tendency of the blending of the blacks with the whites, to give disgust to the people of Pen^a, as had been intimated by his Colleague (M^r Gov^r Morris). But he differed from him in thinking numbers of inhab^{ts} so incorrect a measure of wealth. He had seen the Western settlem^{ts} of P^a and on a comparison of them with the City of Philad^a could discover little other difference, than that property was more unequally divided among individuals here than there. Taking the same number in the aggregate in the two situations he believed there would be little difference in their wealth and ability to contribute to the public wants.

M^r Gov^r Morris was compelled to declare himself reduced to the dilemma of doing injustice to the Southern States or to human nature, and he must therefore do it to the former. For he could never agree to give such encouragement to the Slave Trade as would be given by allowing them a representation for their negroes, and he did not believe those States would ever confederate on terms that would deprive them of that trade.

On Question for agreeing to include 3/5 of the blacks Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d[130] no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

[130] (M^r Carrol s^d in explanation of the vote of M^d that he wished the phraseology to be so altered as to obviate if possible the danger which had been expressed of giving umbrage to the Eastern & Middle States.) Note in Madison's hand.

On the question as to taking census "the first year after the meeting of the Legislature"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On filling the blank for the periodical census, with 15 years. Agreed to nem. con.

M^r Madison moved to add, after "15 years," the words "at least" that the Legislature might anticipate when circumstances were likely to render a particular year inconvenient.

On this motion for adding "at least," it passed in the negative the States being equally divided.

Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

A Change of the phraseology of the other clause so as to read, "and the Legislature shall alter or augment the representation accordingly," was agreed to nem. con.

On the question on the whole resolution of M^r Williamson as amended,

Mas. no. Con^t no. N. J. no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

THURSDAY, JULY 12. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to add to the clause empowering the Legislature to vary the Representation according to the principles of wealth & numbers of inhab^{ts} a "proviso that taxation shall be in proportion to Representation."

M^r Butler contended again that Representation s^d be according to the full number of inhab^{ts} including all the blacks; admitting the justice of M^r Gov^r Morris's motion.

M^r Mason also admitted the justice of the principle, but was afraid embarrassments might be occasioned to the Legislature by it. It might drive the Legislature to the plan of Requisitions.

M^r Gov^r Morris, admitted that some objections lay ag^{st} his Motion, but supposed they would be removed by restraining the rule to direct taxation. With regard to indirect taxes on exports & imports & on consumption the rule would be inapplicable. Notwithstanding what had been said to the contrary he was persuaded that the imports & consumption were pretty nearly equal throughout the Union.

General Pinkney liked the idea. He thought it so just that it could not be objected to. But foresaw that if the revision of the census was left to the discretion of the Legislature, it would never be carried into execution. The rule must be fixed, and the execution of it enforced by the Constitution. He was alarmed at what was said[131] yesterday, concerning the Negroes. He was now again alarmed at what had been thrown out concerning the taxing of exports. S. Carol^a has in one year exported to the amount of £600,000 Sterling all which was the fruit of the labor of her blacks. Will she be represented in proportion to this amount? She will not. Neither ought she then to be subject to a tax on it. He hoped a clause would be inserted in the system, restraining the Legislature from taxing Exports.

[131] By M^r Gov^r Morris. Note in Madison's handwriting.

M^r Wilson approved the principle, but could not see how it could be carried into execution; unless restrained to direct taxation.

M^r Gov^r Morris having so varied his Motion by inserting the word "direct." It pass^d nem. con. as follows--"provided always that direct taxation ought to be proportioned to representation."

M^r Davie said it was high time now to speak out. He saw that it was meant by some gentlemen to deprive the Southern States of any share of Representation for their blacks. He was sure that N. Carol^a would never confederate on any terms that did not rate them at least as 3/5. If the Eastern States meant therefore to exclude them altogether the business was at an end.

D^r Johnson, thought that wealth and population were the true, equitable rule of representation; but he conceived that these two principles resolved themselves into one; population being the best measure of wealth. He concluded therefore that y^e number of people ought to be established as the rule, and that all descriptions including blacks equally with the Whites, ought to fall within the computation. As various opinions had been expressed on the subject, he would move that a Committee might be appointed to take them into consideration and report thereon.

M^r Gov^r Morris. It has been said that it is high time to speak out, as one member, he would candidly do so. He came here to form a compact for the good of America. He was ready to do so with all the States. He hoped & believed that all would enter into such a Compact. If they would not he was ready to join with any States that would. But as the Compact was to be voluntary, it is in vain for the Eastern States to insist on what the South^n States will never agree to. It is equally vain for the latter to require what the other States can never admit; and he verily believed the people of Pen^a will never agree to a representation of Negroes. What can be desired by these States more than has been already proposed; that the Legislature shall from time to time regulate Representation according to population & wealth.

Gen^l Pinkney desired that the rule of wealth should be ascertained and not left to the pleasure of the Legislature; and that property in slaves should not be exposed to danger under a Gov^t instituted for the protection of property.

The first clause in the Report of the first Grand Committee was postponed.

M^r Elseworth. In order to carry into effect the principle established, moved that to add to the last clause adopted by the House the words following, "and that the rule of contribution by direct taxation for the support of the Government of the U. States shall be the number of white inhabitants, and three fifths of every other description in the several States, until some other rule that shall more accurately ascertain the wealth of the several States can be devised and adopted by the Legislature."

M^r Butler seconded the motion in order that it might be committed.

M^r Randolph was not satisfied with the motion. The danger will be revived that the ingenuity of the Legislature may evade or pervert the rule so as to perpetuate the power where it shall be lodged in the first instance. He proposed in lieu of M^r Elseworth's motion, "that in order to ascertain the alterations in Representation that may be required from time to time by changes in the relative circumstances of the States, a Census shall be taken within two years from the 1^{st} meeting of the Gen^l Legislature of the U.S. and once within the term of every ---- year afterwards, of all the inhabitants in the manner & according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their resolution of the 18^{th} day of Ap^l 1783, (rating the blacks at 3/5 of their number) and that the Legislature of the U. S. shall arrange the Representation accordingly." He urged strenuously that express security ought to be provided for including slaves in the ratio of Representation. He lamented that such a species of property existed. But as it did exist the holders of it would require this security. It was perceived that the design was entertained by some of excluding slaves altogether; the Legislature therefore ought not to be left at liberty.

M^r Elseworth withdraws his motion & seconds that of M^r Randolph.

M^r Wilson observed that less umbrage would perhaps be taken ag^{st} an admission of the slaves into the Rule of representation, if it should be so expressed as to make them indirectly only an ingredient in the rule, by saying that they should enter into the rule of taxation; and as representation was to be according to taxation, the end would be equally attained. He accordingly moved & was 2^{ded} so to alter the last clause adopted by the House, that together with the amendment proposed the whole should read as follows--provided always that the representation ought to be proportioned according to direct taxation, and in order to ascertain the alterations in the direct taxation which may be required from time to time by the changes in the relative circumstances of the States, Resolved that a census be taken within two years from the first meeting of the Legislature of the U. States, and once within the term of every ---- years afterwards of all the inhabitants of the U.S. in the manner and according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their Resolution of April 18. 1783; and that the Legislature of the U.S. shall proportion the direct taxation accordingly.

M^r King. Altho' this amendment varies the aspect somewhat, he had still two powerful objections ag^{st} tying down the Legislature to the rule of numbers. 1. they were at this time an uncertain index of the relative wealth of the States. 2. if they were a just index at this time it can not be supposed always to continue so. He was far from wishing to retain any unjust advantage whatever in one part of the Republic. If justice was not the basis of the connection it could not be of long duration. He must be shortsighted indeed who does not foresee that whenever the Southern States shall be more numerous than the Northern, they can & will hold a language that will awe them into justice. If they threaten to separate now in case injury shall be done them, will their threats be less urgent or effectual, when force shall back their demands. Even in the intervening period, there will be no point of time at which they will not be able to say, do us justice or we will separate. He urged the necessity of placing confidence to a certain degree in every Gov^t and did not conceive that the proposed confidence as to a periodical readjustment of the representation exceeded that degree.

M^r Pinkney moved to amend M^r Randolph's motion so as to make "blacks equal to the whites in the ratio of representation." This he urged was nothing more than justice. The blacks are the labourers, the peasants of the Southern States: they are as productive of pecuniary resources as those of the Northern States. They add equally to the wealth, and considering money as the sinew of war, to the strength of the nation. It will also be politic with regard to the Northern States, as taxation is to keep pace with Representation.

Gen^l Pinkney moves to insert 6 years instead of two, as the period computing from the 1^{st} meeting of y^e Legis^e within which the first census should be taken. On this question for inserting six, instead of "two" in the proposition of M^r Wilson, it passed in the affirmative

Mass^{ts} no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. div^d. May^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On a question for filling the blank for y^e periodical census with 20 years, it passed in the negative

Mass^{ts} no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P. ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On a question for 10 years, it passed in the affirmative.

Mass. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P. ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On M^r Pinkney's motion for rating blacks as equal to Whites instead of as 3/5.

Mass. no. Con^t no. (D^r Johnson ay) N. J. no. P^a no. (3 ag^{st} 2.) Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo--ay.

M^r Randolph's proposition as varied by M^r Wilson being read for question on the whole--

M^r Gerry, urged that the principle of it could not be carried into execution as the States were not to be taxed as States. With regard to taxes in imposts, he conceived they would be more productive Where there were no slaves than where there were; the consumption being greater--

M^r Elseworth. In case of a poll tax there w^d be no difficulty. But there w^d probably be none. The sum allotted to a State may be levied without difficulty according to the plan used by the State in raising its own supplies. On the question of y^e whole proposition; as proportioning representation to direct taxation & both to the white & 3/5 of black inhabitants, & requiring a Census within six years--& within every ten years afterwards.

Mass. div^d. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. div^d. Geo. ay.

FRIDAY, JULY 13. IN CONVENTION.

It being moved to postpone the clause in the Report of the Committee of Eleven as to the originating of money bills in the first branch, in order to take up the following--"that in the 2^d branch each State shall have an equal voice,"

M^r Gerry, moved to add as an amendment to the last clause agreed to by the House, "that from the first meeting of the Legislature of the U.S. till a census shall be taken all monies to be raised for supplying the public Treasury by direct taxation shall be assessed on the inhabitants of the several States according to the number of their Representatives respectively in the 1^{st} branch." He said this would be as just before as after the Census; according to the general principle that taxation & Representation ought to go together.

M^r Williamson feared that N. Hampshire will have reason to complain. 3 members were allotted to her as a liberal allowance, for this reason among others, that she might not suppose any advantage to have been taken of her absence. As she was still absent, and had no opportunity of deciding whether she would chuse to retain the number on the condition, of her being taxed in proportion to it, he thought the number ought to be reduced from three to two, before the question was taken on M^r G's motion.

M^r Read could not approve of the proposition. He had observed he said in the Committee a backwardness in some of the members from the large States, to take their full proportion of Representatives. He did not then see the motive. He now suspects it was to avoid their due share of taxation. He had no objection to a just & accurate adjustment of Representation & taxation to each other.

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Madison answered that the charge itself involved an acquittal; since notwithstanding the augmentation of the number of members allotted to Mass^{ts} & V^a the motion for proportioning the burdens thereto was made by a member from the former State & was approved by M^r M. from the latter who was on the Com^e. M^r Gov^r Morris said that he thought P^a had her due share in 8 members; and he could not in candor ask for more. M^r M. said that having always conceived that the difference of interest in the U. States lay not between the large & small, but the N. & South^n States, and finding that the number of members allotted to the N. States was greatly superior, he should have preferred, an addition of two members to the S. States, to wit one to N. & 1 to S. Carl^a rather than of one member to Virg^a. He liked the present motion, because it tended to moderate the views both of the opponents & advocates for rating very high, the negroes.

M^r Elseworth hoped the proposition would be withdrawn. It entered too much into detail. The general principle was already sufficiently settled. As fractions can not be regarded in apportioning the N^o of representatives, the rule will be unjust, until an actual census shall be made. After that taxation may be precisely proportioned according to the principle established, to the number of inhabitants.

M^r Wilson hoped the motion would not be withdrawn. If it sh^d it will be made from another quarter. The rule will be as reasonable & just before, as after a Census. As to fractional numbers, the Census will not destroy, but ascertain them. And they will have the same effect after as before the Census; for as he understands the rule, it is to be adjusted not to the number of inhabitants, but of Representatives.

M^r Sherman opposed the motion. He thought the Legislature ought to be left at liberty: in which case they would probably conform to the principles observed by Cong^s.

M^r Mason did not know that Virg^a would be a loser by the proposed regulation, but had some scruple as to the justice of it. He doubted much whether the conjectural rule which was to precede the Census, would be as just, as it would be rendered by an actual census.

M^r Elseworth & M^r Sherman moved to postpone the motion of M^r Gerry. On y^e question, it passed in the negative. Mass. no. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on M^r Gerry's motion, it passed in the negative, the States being equally divided.

Mass. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry finding that the loss of the question had proceeded from an objection with some, to the proposed assessment of direct taxes on the inhabitants of the States, which might restrain the Legislature to a poll tax, moved his proposition again, but so varied as to authorize the assessment on the States, which leaves the mode to the Legislature, viz "that from the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature of the U. S. untill a census shall be taken, all monies for supplying the public Treasury by direct taxation shall be raised from the said several States according to the number of their representatives respectively in the 1^{st} branch."

On this varied question, it passed in the affirmative

Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a div^d Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the motion of M^r Randolph, the vote of saturday last authorizing the Legisl^{re} to adjust from time to time, the representation upon the principles of wealth & numbers of inhabitants, was reconsidered by common consent in order to strike out "Wealth" and adjust the resolution to that requiring periodical revisions, according to the number of whites & three fifths of the blacks: the motion was in the words following:--"But as the present situation of the States may probably alter in the number of their inhabitants, that the Legislature of the U. S. be authorized from time to time to apportion the number of representatives; and in case any of the States shall hereafter be divided or any two or more States united or new States created within the limits of the U. S. the Legislature of U. S. shall possess authority to regulate the number of Representatives in any of the foregoing cases, upon the principle of their number of inhabitants; according to the provisions hereafter mentioned."

M^r Gov^r Morris opposed the alteration as leaving still incoherence. If Negroes were to be viewed as inhabitants, and the revision was to proceed on the principle of numbers of inhab^{ts} they ought to be added in their entire number, and not in the proportion of 3/5. If as property, the word wealth was right, and striking it out would produce the very inconsistency which it was meant to get rid of.--The train of business & the late turn which it had taken, had led him he said, into deep meditation on it, and He w^d candidly state the result. A distinction had been set up & urged, between the N^n and South^n States. He had hitherto considered this doctrine as heretical. He still thought the distinction groundless. He sees however that it is persisted in, and the South^n Gentlemen will not be satisfied unless they see the way open to their gaining a majority in the public Councils. The consequence of such a transfer of power from the maritime to the interior & landed interest will he foresees be such an oppression of commerce that he shall be obliged to vote for y^e vicious principle of equality in the 2^d branch in order to provide some defence for the N. States ag^{st} it. But to come more to the point; either this distinction is fictitious or real; if fictitious let it be dismissed & let us proceed with due confidence. If it be real, instead of attempting to blend incompatible things, let us at once take a friendly leave of each other. There can be no end of demands for security if every particular interest is to be entitled to it. The Eastern States may claim it for their fishery, and for other objects, as the South^n States claim it for their peculiar objects. In this struggle between the two ends of the Union, what part ought the middle States in point of policy to take: to join their Eastern brethren according to his ideas. If the South^n States get the power into their hands, and be joined as they will be with the interior Country, they will inevitably bring on a war with Spain for the Mississippi. This language is already held. The interior Country having no property nor interest exposed on the sea, will be little affected by such a war. He wished to know what security the North^n & middle States will have ag^{st} this danger. It has been said that N. C. S. C., and Georgia only will in a little time have a majority of the people of America. They must in that case include the great interior Country, and every thing was to be apprehended from their getting the power into their hands.

M^r Butler. The security the South^n States want is that their negroes may not be taken from them, which some gentlemen within or without doors, have a very good mind to do. It was not supposed that N. C. S. C. & Geo. would have more people than all the other States, but many more relatively to the other States than they now have. The people & strength of America are evidently bearing Southwardly & S. westw^{dly}.

M^r Wilson. If a general declaration would satisfy any gentleman he had no indisposition to declare his sentiments. Conceiving that all men wherever placed have equal rights and are equally entitled to confidence, he viewed without apprehension the period when a few States should contain the superior number of people. The majority of people wherever found ought in all questions to govern the minority. If the interior Country should acquire this majority, it will not only have the right, but will avail itself of it whether we will or no. This jealousy misled the policy of G. Britain with regard to America. The fatal maxims espoused by her were that the Colonies were growing too fast, and that their growth must be stinted in time. What were the consequences?, first, enmity on our part, then actual separation. Like consequences will result on the part of the interior settlements, if like jealousy & policy be pursued on ours. Further, if numbers be not a proper rule, why is not some better rule pointed out. No one has yet ventured to attempt it. Cong^s have never been able to discover a better. No State as far as he had heard, had suggested any other. In 1783, after elaborate discussion of a measure of wealth all were satisfied then as they are now that the rule of numbers, does not differ much from the combined rule of numbers & wealth. Again he could not agree that property was the sole or primary object of Gov^t & society. The cultivation & improvement of the human mind was the most noble object. With respect to this object, as well as to other personal rights, numbers were surely the natural & precise measure of Representation. And with respect to property, they could not vary much from the precise measure. In no point of view however could the establishm^t of numbers as the rule of representation in the 1^{st} branch vary his opinion as to the impropriety of letting a vicious principle into the 2^d branch.--On the Question to strike out Wealth, & to make the change as moved by M^r Randolph, it passed in the affirmative.

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del div^d. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Reed moved to insert after the word "divided," "or enlarged by addition of territory" which was agreed to nem con. (his object probably was to provide for such cases as an enlargem^t of Delaware by annexing to it the Peninsula on the East side of the Chesapeak.)

Adjourned.

SATURDAY, JULY 14. IN CONVENTION.

M^r L. Martin called for the question on the whole report, including the parts relating to the origination of money bills, and the equality of votes in the 2^d branch.

M^r Gerry, wished before the question should be put, that the attention of the House might be turned to the dangers apprehended from Western States. He was for admitting them on liberal terms, but not for putting ourselves in their hands. They will if they acquire power like all men, abuse it. They will oppress commerce, and drain our wealth into the Western Country. To guard ag^{st} these consequences, he thought it necessary to limit the number of new States to be admitted into the Union, in such a manner, that they should never be able to outnumber the Atlantic States. He accordingly moved "that in order to secure the liberties of the States already confederated, the number of Representatives in the 1^{st} branch, of the States which shall hereafter be established, shall never exceed in number, the Representatives from such of the States as shall accede to this Confederation.

M^r King, seconded the motion.

M^r Sherman, thought there was no probability that the number of future States would exceed that of the Existing States. If the event should ever happen, it was too remote to be taken into consideration at this time. Besides We are providing for our posterity, for our children & our grand Children; who would be as likely to be citizens of new Western States, as of the old States. On this consideration alone, we ought to make no such discrimination as was proposed by the motion.

M^r Gerry. If some of our children should remove, others will stay behind, and he thought it incumbent on us to provide for their interests. There was a rage for emigration from the Eastern States to the Western Country, and he did not wish those remaining behind to be at the mercy of the emigrants. Besides foreigners are resorting to that Country, and it is uncertain what turn things may take there.--On the question for agreeing to the Motion of M^r Gerry, it passed in the negative.

Mass. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a div^d. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Rutlidge proposed to reconsider the two propositions touching the originating of money bills in the first & the equality of votes in the second branch.

M^r Sherman was for the question on the whole at once. It was he said a conciliatory plan, it had been considered in all its parts, a great deal of time had been spent upon it, and if any part should now be altered, it would be necessary to go over the whole ground again.

M^r L. Martin urged the question on the whole. He did not like many parts of it. He did not like having two branches, nor the inequality of votes in the 1^{st} branch. He was willing however to make trial of the plan, rather than do nothing.

M^r Wilson traced the progress of the report through its several stages, remarking y^t when on the question concerning an equality of votes, the House was divided, our Constituents had they voted as their representatives did, would have stood as 2/3 ag^{st} the equality, and 1/3 only in favor of it. This fact would ere long be known, and it will appear that this fundamental point has been carried by 1/3 ag^{st} 2/3. What hopes will our Constituents entertain when they find that the essential principles of justice have been violated in the outset of the Governm^t. As to the privilege of originating money bills, it was not considered by any as of much moment, and by many as improper in itself. He hoped both clauses w^d be reconsidered. The equality of votes was a point of such critical importance, that every opportunity ought to be allowed, for discussing and collecting the mind of the Convention upon it.

M^r L. Martin denies that there were 2/3 ag^{st} the equality of votes. The States that please to call themselves large, are the weakest in the Union. Look at Mas^{ts}. Look at Virg^a. Are they efficient States? He was for letting a separation take place if they desired it. He had rather there should be two Confederacies, than one founded on any other principle than an equality of votes in the 2^d branch at least.

M^r Wilson was not surprised that those who say that a minority is more than a majority should say the minority is stronger than the majority. He supposed the next assertion will be that they are richer also; though he hardly expected it would be persisted in when the States shall be called on for taxes & troops.

M^r Gerry also animadverted on M^r L. Martins remarks on the weakness of Mas^{ts}. He favored the reconsideration with a view not of destroying the equality of votes; but of providing that the States should vote per Capita, which he said would prevent the delays & inconveniences that had been experienced in Cong^s and would give a national aspect & Spirit to the management of business. He did not approve of a reconsideration of the clause relating to money bills. It was of great consequence. It was the corner stone of the accommodation. If any member of the Convention had the exclusive privilege of making propositions, would any one say that it would give him no advantage over other members. The Report was not altogether to his mind. But he would agree to it as it stood rather than throw it out altogether.

The reconsideration being tacitly agreed to

M^r Pinkney moved that instead of an equality of votes, the States should be represented in the 2^d branch as follows: N. H. by 2 members. Mass. 4. R. I. 1. Con^t 3. N. Y. 3. N. J. 2. P^a 4. Del. 1; M^d 3. Virg^a 5. N. C. 3. S. C. 3. Geo. 2. making in the whole 36.

M^r Wilson seconds the motion

M^r Dayton. The smaller States can never give up their equality. For himself he would in no event yield that security for their rights.

M^r Sherman, urged the equality of votes not so much as a Security for the small States; as for the State Gov^{ts} which could not be preserved unless they were represented & had a negative in the Gen^l Government. He had no objection to the members in the 2^d b. voting per capita, as had been suggested by (M^r Gerry).

M^r Madison concurred in this motion of M^r Pinkney as a reasonable compromise.

M^r Gerry said he should like the motion, but could see no hope of success. An accommodation must take place, and it was apparent from what had been seen that it could not do so on the ground of the motion. He was utterly against a partial confederacy, leaving other States to accede or not accede, as had been intimated.

M^r King said it was always with regret that he differed from his colleagues, but it was his duty to differ from (M^r Gerry) on this occasion. He considered the proposed Government as substantially and formally, a General and National Government over the people of America. There never will be a case in which it will act as a federal Government on the States and not on the individual Citizens. And is it not a clear principle that in a free Gov^t those who are to be the objects of a Gov^t ought to influence the operations of it? What reason can be assigned why the same rule of representation s^d not prevail in the 2^d branch as in the 1^{st}.? He could conceive none. On the contrary, every view of the subject that presented itself, seemed to require it. Two objections had been raised ag^{st} it, drawn 1. from the terms of the existing compact. 2. from a supposed danger to the smaller States.--As to the first objection he thought it inapplicable. According to the existing Confederation, the rule by which the public burdens is to be apportioned is fixed, and must be pursued. In the proposed Govern^t it cannot be fixed, because indirect taxation is to be substituted. The Legislature therefore will have full discretion to impose taxes in such modes & proportions as they may judge expedient. As to the 2^d objection, he thought it of as little weight. The Gen^l Govern^t can never wish to intrude on the State Govern^{ts}. There could be no temptation. None had been pointed out. In order to prevent the interference of measures which seemed most likely to happen, he would have no objection to throwing all the State debts into the federal debt, making one aggregate debt of about 70,000,000 of dollars, and leaving it to be discharged by the Gen^l Gov^t. According to the idea of securing the State Gov^{ts} there ought to be three distinct legislative branches. The 2^d was admitted to be necessary, and was actually meant, to check the 1^{st} branch, to give more wisdom, system, & stability to the Gov^t and ought clearly as it was to operate on the people, to be proportioned to them. For the third purpose of securing the States, there ought then to be a 3^d branch, representing the States as such, and guarding by equal votes their rights & dignities. He would not pretend to be as thoroughly acquainted with his immediate Constituents as his colleagues, but it was his firm belief that Mas^{ts} would never be prevailed on to yield to an equality of votes. In N. York, (he was sorry to be obliged to say any thing relative to that State in the absence of its representatives, but the occasion required it), in N. York he had seen that the most powerful argument used by the considerate opponents to the grant of the Impost to Congress, was pointed ag^{st} the vicious constitution of Cong^s with regard to representation & suffrage. He was sure that no Gov^t could last that was not founded on just principles. He preferred the doing of nothing, to an allowance of an equal vote to all the States. It would be better he thought to submit to a little more confusion & convulsion, than to submit to such an evil. It was difficult to say what the views of different Gentlemen might be. Perhaps there might be some who thought no Governm^t co-extensive with the U. States could be established with a hope of its answering the purpose. Perhaps there might be other fixed opinions incompatible with the object we are pursuing. If there were, he thought it but candid that Gentlemen should speak out that we might understand one another.

M^r Strong. The Convention had been much divided in opinion. In order to avoid the consequences of it, an accommodation had been proposed. A Committee had been appointed: and though some of the members of it were averse to an equality of votes, a Report had been made in favor of it. It is agreed on all hands that Congress are nearly at an end. If no Accommodation takes place, the Union itself must soon be dissolved. It has been suggested that if we cannot come to any general agreement, the principal States may form & recommend a Scheme of Government. But will the small States in that case ever accede it. Is it probable that the large States themselves will under such circumstances embrace and ratify it. He thought the small States had made a considerable concession in the article of money bills, and that they might naturally expect some concessions on the other side. From this view of the matter he was compelled to give his vote for the Report taken altogether.

M^r Madison expressed his apprehensions that if the proper foundation of Governm^t was destroyed, by substituting an equality in place of a proportional Representation, no proper superstructure would be raised. If the small States really wish for a Government armed with the powers necessary to secure their liberties, and to enforce obedience on the larger members as well as themselves he could not help thinking them extremely mistaken in their means. He reminded them of the consequences of laying the existing Confederation on improper principles. All the principal parties to its compilation joined immediately in mutilating & fettering the Governm^t in such a manner that it has disappointed every hope placed in it. He appealed to the doctrine & arguments used by themselves on a former occasion. It had been very properly observed by (M^r Patterson) that Representation was an expedient by which the meeting of the people themselves was rendered unnecessary; And that the representatives ought therefore to bear a proportion to the votes which their constituents if convened would respectively have. Was not this remark as applicable to one branch of the Representation as to the other? But it had been said that the Govern^t would in its operation be partly federal, partly national; that altho' in the latter respect the Representatives of the people ought to be in proportion to the people; yet in the former it ought to be according to the number of States. If there was any solidity in this distinction he was ready to abide by it, if there was none it ought to be abandoned. In all cases where the Gen^l Governm^t is to act on the people, let the people be represented and the votes be proportional. In all cases where the Govern^t is to act on the States as such in like manner as Cong^s now acts on them, let the States be represented & the votes be equal. This was the true ground of compromise if there was any ground at all. But he denied that there was any ground. He called for a single instance in which the Gen^l Gov^t was not to operate on the people individually. The practicability of making laws, with coercive sanctions, for the States as Political bodies, had been exploded on all hands. He observed that the people of the large States would in some way or other secure to themselves a weight proportioned to the importance accruing from their superior numbers. If they could not effect it by a proportional representation in the Gov^t they would probably accede to no Gov^t which did not in a great measure depend for its efficacy on their voluntary cooperation; in which case they would indirectly secure their object. The existing confederacy proved that where the Acts of the Gen^l Gov^t were to be executed by the particular Gov^{ts} the latter had a weight in proportion to their importance. No one would say that either in Cong^s or out of Cong^s. Delaware had equal weight with Pennsylv^a. If the latter was to supply ten times as much money as the former, and no compulsion could be used, it was of ten times more importance, that she should voluntarily furnish the supply. In the Dutch confederacy the votes of the Provinces were equal. But Holland which supplies about half the money, governed the whole republic. He enumerated the objections ag^{st} an equality of votes in the 2^d branch, notwithstanding the proportional representation in the first. 1. the minority could negative the will of the majority of the people. 2. they could extort measures by making them a condition of their assent to other necessary measures. 3. they could obtrude measures on the majority by virtue of the peculiar powers which would be vested in the Senate. 4. the evil instead of being cured by time, would increase with every new State that should be admitted, as they must all be admitted on the principle of equality. 5. the perpetuity it would give to the preponderance of the North^n ag^{st} the South^n Scale was a serious consideration. It seemed now to be pretty well understood that the real difference of interests lay, not between the large & small but between the N. & South^n States. The institution of slavery & its consequences formed the line of discrimination. There were 5 States on the South, 8 on the North^n side of this line. Should a proport^l representation take place it was true, the N. side would still outnumber the other; but not in the same degree, at this time; and every day would tend towards an equilibrium.

Article X (part 5)

M^r Wilson would add a few words only. If equality in the 2^d branch was an error that time would correct, he should be less anxious to exclude it being sensible that perfection was unattainable in any plan; but being a fundamental and a perpetual error, it ought by all means to be avoided. A vice in the Representation, like an error in the first concoction, must be followed by disease, convulsions, and finally death itself. The justice of the general principle of proportional representation has not in argument at least been yet contradicted. But it is said that a departure from it so far as to give the States an equal vote in one branch of the Legislature is essential to their preservation. He had considered this position maturely, but could not see its application. That the States ought to be preserved he admitted. But does it follow that an equality of votes is necessary for the purpose? Is there any reason to suppose that if their preservation should depend more on the large than on the small States the security of the States ag^{st} the Gen^l Government would be diminished? Are the large States less attached to their existence more likely to commit suicide, than the small? An equal vote then is not necessary as far as he can conceive: and is liable among other objections to this insuperable one: The great fault of the existing confederacy is its inactivity. It has never been a complaint ag^{st} Cong^s that they governed over much. The complaint has been that they have governed too little. To remedy this defect we were sent here. Shall we effect the cure by establishing an equality of votes as is proposed? no: this very equality carries us directly to Congress; to the system which it is our duty to rectify. The small States cannot indeed act, by virtue of this equality, but they may controul the Gov^t as they have done in Cong^s. This very measure is here prosecuted by a minority of the people of America. Is then the object of the Convention likely to be accomplished in this way? Will not our Constituents say? we sent you to form an efficient Gov^t and you have given us one more complex indeed, but having all the weakness of the former govern^t. He was anxious for uniting all the States under one Govern^t. He knew there were some respectable men who preferred three confederacies, united by offensive & defensive alliances. Many things may be plausibly said, some things may be justly said, in favor of such a project. He could not however concur in it himself; but he thought nothing so pernicious as bad first principles.

M^r Elseworth asked two questions, one of M^r Wilson, whether he had ever seen a good measure fail in Cong^s for want of a majority of States in its favor? He had himself never known such an instance: the other of M^r Madison whether a negative lodged with the majority of the States even the smallest, could be more dangerous than the qualified negative proposed to be lodged in a single Executive Magistrate, who must be taken from some one State?

M^r Sherman, signified that his expectation was that the Gen^l Legislature would in some cases act on the federal principle, of requiring quotas. But he thought it ought to be empowered to carry their own plans into execution, if the States should fail to supply their respective quotas.

On the question for agreeing to M^r Pinkney's motion for allowing N. H. 2. Mas. 4. &c.--it passed in the negative,

Mass. no. M^r King ay. M^r Ghorum absent. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Adjourned.[132]

[132] "Memorandum. "July 15, '87.

"About twelve days since the Convention appointed a Grand Comee, consisting of Gerry, Ellsworth, Yates, Paterson, Franklin, Bedford, Martin, Mason, Rutledge & Baldwin to adjust the Representation in the two Brs. of the Legislature of the U. S. They reported yt. every 40,000 Inhabs. taken agreeably to the Resolution of Cong. of ye 18 Ap. 1783, shd. send one member to the first Br. of the Legislature, yt. this Br. shd. originate exclusively Money Bills, & also originate ye appropriations of money; and that in ye Senate or upper Br. each State shd. have one vote & no more. The Representation as to the first Br. was twice recommitted altho' not to the same Committee; finally it was agreed yt Taxation of the direct sort & Representation shd. be in direct proportion with each other--that the first Br. shd. consist of 65 members, viz. N. H. 3, M. 8, R. I. 1, C. 5, N. Y. 6, N. J. 4, P. 8, D. 1, M. 6, V. 10, N. C. 5, S. C. 5, G. 3,--and that the origination of money Bills and the Appropriations of money shd. belong in the first instance to yt. Br., but yt in the Senate or 2nd Br. each State shd. have an equal Vote. In this situation of the Report it was moved by S. Car. that in the formation of the 2nd Br., instead of an equality of Votes among the States, that N. H. shd. have 2, M. 4, R. I. 1, C. 3, N. Y. 3, N. J. 2, P. 4, D. 1, M. 3, V. 5, N. C. 3, S. C. 3, G. 2 = total 36.

"On the question to agree to this apportionment, instead of the equality (Mr. Gorham being absent) Mass., Con., N. Jer., Del., N. Car., & Georg--No. Penn., Mar., Virg. & S. Car. Aye.

"This Question was taken and to my mortification by the vote of Mass. lost on the 14th July.

"(endorsed 'inequality lost by vote of Mass.')"--King's Note, King's Life and Correspondence of Rufus King, I., 615.

MONDAY, JULY 16. IN CONVENTION.

On the question for agreeing to the whole Report as amended & including the equality of votes in the 2^d branch, it passed in the affirmative.

Mass. divided M^r Gerry, M^r Strong. ay. M^r King, M^r Ghorum no. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. Pen^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. M^r Spraight no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The whole thus passed is in the words following, viz. "Resolved, that in the original formation of the Legislature of the U. S. the first branch thereof shall consist of sixty five members, of which number N. Hampshire shall send 3. Mass^{ts} 8. Rh. I. 1. Conn^t 5. N. Y. 6. N. J. 4. Pen^a 8. Del. 1. Mary^d 6. Virg^a 10. N. C. 5. S. C. 5. Geo. 3.--But as the present situation of the States may probably alter in the number of their inhabitants, the Legislature of the U. S. shall be authorized from time to time to apportion the number of Rep^s and in case any of the States shall hereafter be divided, or enlarged by addition of territory, or any two or more States united, or any new States created within the limits of the U. S. the Legislature of the U. S. shall possess authority to regulate the number of Rep^s in any of the foregoing cases, upon the principle of their number of inhabitants, according to the provisions hereafter mentioned. namely--provided always that representation ought to be proportioned according to direct taxation; and in order to ascertain the alteration in the direct taxation, which may be required from time to time by the changes in the relative circumstances of the States--

Resolved, that a Census be taken within six years from the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature of the U. S., and once within the term of every 10 years afterwards of all the inhabitants of the U. S. in the manner and according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their Resolution of April 18. 1783, and that the Legislature of the U. S. shall proportion the direct taxation accordingly--

Resolved, that all bills for raising or appropriating money, and for fixing the salaries of officers of the Gov^t of the U. S. shall originate in the first branch of the Legislature of the U. S. and shall not be altered or amended in the 2^d branch: and that no money shall be drawn from the Public Treasury, but in pursuance of appropriations to be originated in the 1^{st} branch.

Resolv^d, that in the 2^d branch of the Legislature of the U. S., each State shall have an equal vote.

The 6^{th} Resol: in the Report from the Com^e of the whole House, which had been postponed in order to consider the 7 & 8^{th} Resol^{ns}.; was now resumed. see the Resol^n:

The 1^{st} member "That the Nat^l Legislature ought to possess the Legislative Rights vested in Cong^s by the Confederation" was agreed to nem. con.

The next, "And moreover to legislate in all cases to which the separate States are incompetent; or in which the harmony of the U. S. may be interrupted by the exercise of individual legislation," being read for a question.

M^r Butler calls for some explanation of the extent of this power; particularly of the word incompetent. The vagueness of the terms rendered it impossible for any precise judgment to be formed.

M^r Ghorum. The vagueness of the terms constitutes the propriety of them. We are now establishing general principles, to be extended hereafter into details which will be precise & explicit.

M^r Rutlidge, urged the objection started by M^r Butler and moved that the clause should be committed to the end that a specification of the powers comprised in the general terms, might be reported.

On the question for commitment, the States were equally divided

Mas. no. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay: So it was lost.

M^r Randolph. The vote of this morning (involving an equality of suffrage in 2^d branch) had embarrassed the business extremely. All the powers given in the Report from the Com^e of the whole, were founded on the supposition that a Proportional representation was to prevail in both branches of the Legislature. When he came here this morning his purpose was to have offered some propositions that might if possible have united a great majority of votes, and particularly might provide ag^{st} the danger suspected on the part of the smaller States, by enumerating the cases in which it might lie, and allowing an equality of votes in such cases.[133] But finding from the Preceding vote that they persist in demanding an equal vote in all cases, that they have succeeded in obtaining it, and that N. York, if present would probably be on the same side, he could not but think we were unprepared to discuss this subject further. It will probably be in vain to come to any final decision with a bare majority on either side. For these reasons he wished the Convention might adjourn, that the large States might consider the steps proper to be taken in the present solemn crisis of the business, and that the small States might also deliberate on the means of conciliation.

[133] See the paper, in the appendix, co[~m]unicated by M^r R. to J. M. July 10.--Note in Madison's hand.

M^r Patterson, thought with M^r R. that it was high time for the Convention to adjourn that the rule of secrecy ought to be rescinded, and that our Constituents should be consulted. No conciliation could be admissible on the part of the smaller States on any other ground than that of an equality of votes in the 2^d branch. If M^r Randolph would reduce to form his motion for an adjournment sine die, he would second it with all his heart.

Gen^l Pinkney wished to know of M^r R. whether he meant an adjournment sine die, or only an adjournment for the day. If the former was meant, it differed much from his idea. He could not think of going to S. Carolina and returning again to this place. Besides it was chimerical to suppose that the States if consulted would ever accord separately, and beforehand.

M^r Randolph, had never entertained an idea of an adjournment sine die; & was sorry that his meaning had been so readily & strangely misinterpreted. He had in view merely an adjournment till to-morrow, in order that some conciliatory experiment might if possible be devised, and that in case the smaller States should continue to hold back, the larger might then take such measures, he would not say what, as might be necessary.

M^r Patterson seconded the adjournment till to-morrow, as an opportunity seemed to be wished by the larger States to deliberate further on conciliatory expedients.

On the question for adjourning till tomorrow, the States were equally divided,

Mas. no. Con^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no, so it was lost.

M^r Broome thought it his duty to declare his opinion ag^{st} an adjournment sine die, as had been urged by M^r Patterson. Such a measure he thought would be fatal. Something must be done by the Convention, tho' it should be by a bare majority.

M^r Gerry observed that Mas^{ts} was opposed to an adjournment, because they saw no new ground of compromise. But as it seemed to be the opinion of so many States that a trial sh^d be made, the State would now concur in the adjournm^t.

M^r Rutlidge could see no need of an adjourn^t because he could see no chance of a compromise. The little States were fixt. They had repeatedly & solemnly declared themselves to be so. All that the large States then had to do was to decide whether they would yield or not. For his part he conceived that altho' we could not do what we thought best, in itself, we ought to do something. Had we not better keep the Gov^t up a little longer, hoping that another Convention will supply our omissions, than abandon every thing to hazard. Our Constituents will be very little satisfied with us if we take the latter course.

M^r Randolph & M^r King renewed the motion to adjourn till tomorrow.

On the question. Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. div^d.

Adjourned

* * * * *

On the morning following before the hour of the Convention a number of the members from the larger States, by common agreement met for the purpose of consulting on the proper steps to be taken in consequence of the vote in favor of an equal Representation in the 2^d branch, and the apparent inflexibility of the smaller States on that point. Several members from the latter States also attended. The time was wasted in vague conversation on the subject, without any specific proposition or agreement. It appeared indeed that the opinions of the members who disliked the equality of votes differed much as to the importance of that point, and as to the policy of risking a failure of any general act of the Convention by inflexibly opposing it. Several of them supposing that no good Governm^t could or would be built on that foundation, and that as a division of the convention into two opinions was unavoidable; it would be better that the side comprising the principal States, and a majority of the people of America, should propose a scheme of Gov^t to the States, than that a scheme should be proposed on the other side, would have concurred in a firm opposition to the smaller States, and in a separate recommendation, if eventually necessary. Others seemed inclined to yield to the smaller States, and to concur in such an Act however imperfect & exceptionable, as might be agreed on by the Convention as a body, tho' decided by a bare majority of States and by a minority of the people of the U. States. It is probable that the result of this consultation satisfied the smaller States that they had nothing to apprehend from a Union of the larger, in any plan whatever ag^{st} the equality of votes in the 2^d branch.

TUESDAY JULY 17. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Govern^r Morris, moved to reconsider the whole Resolution agreed to yesterday concerning the constitution of the 2 branches of the Legislature. His object was to bring the House to a consideration in the abstract of the powers necessary to be vested in the general Government. It had been said, Let us know how the Gov^t is to be modelled, and then we can determine what powers can be properly given to it. He thought the most eligible course was, first to determine on the necessary powers, and then so to modify the Govern^t as that it might be justly & properly enabled to administer them. He feared if we proceeded to a consideration of the powers, whilst the vote of yesterday including an equality of the States in the 2^d branch, remained in force, a reference to it, either mental or expressed, would mix itself with the merits of every question concerning the powers.--This motion was not seconded. (It was probably approved by several members who either despaired of success, or were apprehensive that the attempt would inflame the jealousies of the smaller States.)

The 6^{th} Resol^n in the Report of the Com^e of the Whole relating to the powers, which had been postponed in order to consider the 7 & 8^{th} relating to the constitution of the Nat^l Legislature, was now resumed.

M^r Sherman observed that it would be difficult to draw the line between the powers of the Gen^l Legislature, and those to be left with the States; that he did not like the definition contained in the Resolution, and proposed in place of the words "individual legislation" line 4. inclusive, to insert "to make laws binding on the people of the United States in all cases which may concern the common interests of the Union; but not to interfere with the Government of the individual States in any matters of internal police which respect the Gov^t of such States only, and wherein the general welfare of the U. States is not concerned."

M^r Wilson 2^{ded} the amendment as better expressing the general principle.

M^r Gov^r Morris opposed it. The internal police, as it would be called & understood by the States ought to be infringed in many cases, as in the case of paper money & other tricks by which Citizens of other States may be affected.

M^r Sherman, in explanation of his idea read an enumeration of powers, including the power of levying taxes on trade, but not the power of direct taxation.

M^r Gov^r Morris remarked the omission, and inferred that for the deficiencies of taxes on consumption, it must have been the meaning of Mr. Sherman, that the Gen^l Gov^t should recur to quotas & requisitions, which are subversive of the idea of Gov^t.

M^r Sherman acknowledged that his enumeration did not include direct taxation. Some provision he supposed must be made for supplying the deficiency of other taxation, but he had not formed any.

On Question on M^r Sherman's motion it passed in the negative

Mas. no. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Bedford moved that the 2^d member of Resolution 6. be so altered as to read, "and moreover to legislate in all cases for the general interests of the Union, and also in those to which the States are severally incompetent, or in which the harmony of the U. States may be interrupted by the exercise of individual Legislation."

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ds} the motion.

M^r Randolph. This is a formidable idea indeed. It involves the power of violating all the laws and constitutions of the States, and of intermeddling with their police. The last member of the sentence is also superfluous, being included in the first.

M^r Bedford. It is not more extensive or formidable than the clause as it stands: no State being separately competent to legislate for the general interest of the Union.

On question for agreeing to M^r Bedford's motion it passed in the affirmative.

Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the sentence as amended, it passed in the affirmative.

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The next. "To negative all laws passed by the several States contravening in the opinion of the Nat: Legislature the articles of Union, or any treaties subsisting under the authority of y^e Union."

M^r Gov^r Morris opposed this power as likely to be terrible to the States, and not necessary, if sufficient Legislative authority should be given to the Gen^l Government.

M^r Sherman thought it unnecessary; as the Courts of the States would not consider as valid any law contravening the Authority of the Union, and which the legislature would wish to be negatived.

M^r L. Martin considered the power as improper & inadmissible. Shall all the laws of the States be sent up to the Gen^l Legislature before they shall be permitted to operate?

M^r Madison, considered the negative on the laws of the States as essential to the efficacy & security of the Gen^l Gov^t. The necessity of a general Gov^t proceeds from the propensity of the States to pursue their particular interests in opposition to the general interest. This propensity will continue to disturb the system, unless effectually controuled. Nothing short of a negative on their laws will controul it. They will pass laws which will accomplish their injurious objects before they can be repealed by the Gen^l Legisl^{re} or be set aside by the National Tribunals. Confidence can not be put in the State Tribunals as guardians of the National authority and interests. In all the States these are more or less depend^t on the Legislatures. In Georgia they are appointed annually by the Legislature. In R. Island the Judges who refused to execute an unconstitutional law were displaced, and others substituted, by the Legislature who would be the willing instruments of the wicked & arbitrary plans of their masters. A power of negativing the improper laws of the States is at once the most mild & certain means of preserving the harmony of the system. Its utility is sufficiently displayed in the British system. Nothing could maintain the harmony & subordination of the various parts of the empire, but the prerogative by which the Crown, stifles in the birth every Act of every part tending to discord or encroachment. It is true the prerogative is sometimes misapplied thro' ignorance or a partiality to one particular part of y^e empire; but we have not the same reason to fear such misapplications in our System. As to the sending all laws up to the Nat^l Legisl: that might be rendered unnecessary by some emanation of the power into the States, so far at least as to give a temporary effect to laws of immediate necessity.

M^r Gov^r Morris was more & more opposed to the negative. The proposal of it would disgust all the States. A law that ought to be negatived will be set aside in the Judiciary departm^t and if that security should fail; may be repealed by a Nation^l law.

M^r Sherman. Such a power involves a wrong principle, to wit, that a law of a State contrary to the articles of the Union would if not negatived, be valid & operative.

M^r Pinkney urged the necessity of the Negative.

On the question for agreeing to the power of negativing laws of States &c. it passed in the negative.

Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Luther Martin moved the following resolution "that the Legislative acts of the U. S. made by virtue & in pursuance of the articles of Union and all Treaties made & ratified under the authority of the U. S. shall be the supreme law of the respective States, as far as those acts or treaties shall relate to the said States, or their Citizens and inhabitants--& that the Judiciaries of the several States shall be bound thereby in their decisions, any thing in the respective laws of the individual States to the contrary notwithstanding" which was agreed to nem: con:

9^{th} Resol: "that Nat^l Executive consist of a single person," Ag^d to nem. con.

"To be chosen by the National Legisl:"

M^r Govern^r Morris was pointedly ag^{st} his being so chosen. He will be the mere creature of the Legisl: if appointed & impeachable by that body. He ought to be elected by the people at large, by the freeholders of the Country. That difficulties attend this mode, he admits. But they have been found superable in N. Y. & in Con^t and would he believed be found so, in the case of an Executive for the U. States. If the people should elect, they will never fail to prefer some man of distinguished character, or services; some man, if he might so speak, of continental reputation. If the Legislature elect, it will be the work of intrigue, of cabal, and of faction; it will be like the election of a pope by a conclave of cardinals; real merit will rarely be the title to the appointment. He moved to strike out "National Legislature," & insert "citizens of the U. S."

M^r Sherman thought that the sense of the Nation would be better expressed by the Legislature, than by the people at large. The latter will never be sufficiently informed of characters, and besides will never give a majority of votes to any one man. They will generally vote for some man in their own State, and the largest State will have the best chance for the appointment. If the choice be made by the Legisl^{re} a majority of voices may be made necessary to constitute an election.

M^r Wilson. Two arguments have been urged ag^{st} an election of the Executive Magistrate by the people. 1 the example of Poland where an Election of the supreme Magistrate is attended with the most dangerous commotions. The cases he observed were totally dissimilar. The Polish nobles have resources & dependants which enable them to appear in force, and to threaten the Republic as well as each other. In the next place the electors all assemble in one place; which would not be the case with us. The 2^d arg^t is that a majority of the people would never concur. It might be answered that the concurrence of a majority of the people is not a necessary principle of election, nor required as such in any of the States. But allowing the objection all its force, it may be obviated by the expedient used in Mass^{ts}, where the Legislature by majority of voices, decide in case a majority of people do not concur in favor of one of the candidates. This would restrain the choice to a good nomination at least, and prevent in a great degree intrigue & cabal. A particular objection with him ag^{st} an absolute election by the Legisl^{re} was that the Exec: in that case would be too dependent to stand the mediator between the intrigues & sinister views of the Representatives and the general liberties & interests of the people.

M^r Pinkney did not expect this question would again have been brought forward: An Election by the people being liable to the most obvious & striking objections. They will be led by a few active & designing men. The most populous States by combining in favor of the same individual will be able to carry their points. The Nat^l Legislature being most immediately interested in the laws made by themselves, will be most attentive to the choice of a fit man to carry them properly into execution.

M^r Gov^r Morris. It is said that in case of an election by the people the populous States will combine & elect whom they please. Just the reverse. The people of such States cannot combine. If there be any combination it must be among their representatives in the Legislature. It is said the people will be led by a few designing men. This might happen in a small district. It can never happen throughout the continent. In the election of a Gov^r of N. York, it sometimes is the case in particular spots, that the activity & intrigues of little partizans are successful, but the general voice of the State is never influenced by such artifices. It is said the multitude will be uninformed. It is true they would be uninformed of what passed in the Legislative Conclave, if the election were to be made there; but they will not be uninformed of those great & illustrious characters which have merited their esteem & confidence. If the Executive be chosen by the Nat^l Legislature, he will not be independent on it; and if not independent, usurpation & tyranny on the part of the Legislature will be the consequence. This was the case in England in the last Century. It has been the case in Holland, where their Senates have engrossed all power. It has been the case every where. He was surprised that an election by the people at large should ever have been likened to the polish election of the first Magistrate. An election by the Legislature will bear a real likeness to the election by the Diet of Poland. The great must be the electors in both cases, and the corruption & cabal w^{ch} are known to characterize the one would soon find their way into the other. Appointments made by numerous bodies, are always worse than those made by single responsible individuals, or by the people at large.

Col. Mason. It is curious to remark the different language held at different times. At one moment we are told that the Legislature is entitled to thorough confidence, and to indefinite power. At another, that it will be governed by intrigue & corruption, and cannot be trusted at all. But not to dwell on this inconsistency he would observe that a Government which is to last ought at least to be practicable. Would this be the case if the proposed election should be left to the people at large. He conceived it would be as unnatural to refer the choice of a proper character for Chief Magistrate to the people, as it would, to refer a trial of colours to a blind man. The extent of the Country renders it impossible that the people can have the requisite capacity to judge of the respective pretensions of the Candidates.

M^r Wilson, could not see the contrariety stated (by Col. Mason.) The Legisl^{re} might deserve confidence in some respects, and distrust in others. In acts which were to affect them & y^r Constituents precisely alike confidence was due. In others jealousy was warranted. The appointment to great offices, where the Legisl^{re} might feel many motives, not common to the public confidence was surely misplaced. This branch of business it was notorious, was the most corruptly managed of any that had been committed to legislative bodies.

M^r Williamson, conceived that there was the same difference between an election in this case, by the people and by the legislature, as between an app^t by lot, and by choice. There are at present distinguished characters, who are known perhaps to almost every man. This will not always be the case. The people will be sure to vote for some man in their own State, and the largest State will be sure to succeed. This will not be Virg^a however. Her slaves will have no suffrage. As the Salary of the Executive will be fixed, and he will not be eligible a 2^d time, there will not be such a dependence on the Legislature as has been imagined.

Question on an election by the people instead of the Legislature, which passed in the negative.

Mas. no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r L. Martin moved that the Executive be chosen by Electors appointed by the several Legislatures of the individual States.

M^r Broome 2^{ds}. On the Question, it passed in the negative.

Mas. no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question on the words, "to be chosen by the Nation^l Legislature" it passed unanimously in the affirmative

"For the term of seven years"--postponed nem. con. on motion of M^r Houston and Gov. Morris

"to carry into execution the nation^l laws"--agreed to nem. con.

"to appoint to offices in cases not otherwise provided for,"--agreed to nem. con.

"to be ineligible a second time"--M^r Houston moved to strike out this clause.

M^r Sherman 2^{ds} the motion.

M^r Gov^r Morris espoused the motion. The ineligibility proposed by the clause as it stood tended to destroy the great motive to good behavior, the hope of being rewarded by a re-appointment. It was saying to him, make hay while the sun shines.

On the question for striking out, as moved by M^r Houston, it passed in the affirmative

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

"For the term of 7 years," resumed.

M^r Broom was for a shorter term since the Executive Magistrate was now to be re-eligible. Had he remained ineligible a 2^d time, he should have preferred a longer term.

Doc^r M^cClurg moved[134] to strike out 7 years, and insert "during good behavior." By striking out the words declaring him not re-eligible, he was put into a situation that would keep him dependent forever on the Legislature; and he conceived the independence of the Executive to be equally essential with that of the Judiciary department.

[134] The probable object of this motion was merely to enforce the argument against the re-eligibility of the Executive magistrate by holding out a tenure during good behaviour as the alternate for keeping him independent of the legislature.--Note in Madison's handwriting.

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ded} the motion. He expressed great pleasure in hearing it. This was the way to get a good Government. His fear that so valuable an ingredient would not be attained had led him to take the part he had done. He was indifferent how the Executive should be chosen, provided he held his place by this tenure.

M^r Broome highly approved the motion. It obviated all his difficulties

M^r Sherman considered such a tenure as by no means safe or admissible. As the Executive Magistrate is now re-eligible, he will be on good behavior as far as will be necessary. If he behaves well he will be continued; if otherwise, displaced, on a succeeding election.

M^r Madison.[135] If it be essential to the preservation of liberty that the Legisl: Execut: & Judiciary powers be separate, it is essential to a maintenance of the separation, that they should be independent of each other. The Executive could not be independent of the Legislure, if dependent on the pleasure of that branch for a re-appointment. Why was it determined that the Judges should not hold their places by such a tenure? Because they might be tempted to cultivate the Legislature, by an undue complaisance, and thus render the Legislature the virtual expositor, as well as the maker of the laws. In like manner a dependence of the Executive on the Legislature, would render it the Executor as well as the maker of laws; & then according to the observation of Montesquieu, tyrannical laws may be made that they may be executed in a tyrannical manner. There was an analogy between the Executive & Judiciary departments in several respects. The latter executed the laws in certain cases as the former did in others. The former expounded & applied them for certain purposes, as the latter did for others. The difference between them seemed to consist chiefly in two circumstances--1. the collective interest & security were much more in the power belonging to the Executive than to the Judiciary department. 2. in the administration of the former much greater latitude is left to opinion and discretion than in the administration of the latter. But if the 2^d consideration proves that it will be more difficult to establish a rule sufficiently precise for trying the Execut: than the Judges, & forms an objection to the same tenure of office, both considerations prove that it might be more dangerous to suffer a Union between the Executive & Legisl: powers, than between the Judiciary & Legislative powers. He conceived it to be absolutely necessary to a well constituted Republic that the two first sh^d be kept distinct & independent of each other. Whether the plan proposed by the motion was a proper one was another question, as it depended on the practicability of instituting a tribunal for impeachm^{ts} as certain & as adequate in the one case as in the other. On the other hand, respect for the mover entitled his proposition to a fair hearing & discussion, until a less objectionable expedient should be applied for guarding ag^{st} a dangerous union of the Legislative & Executive departments.

[135] The view here taken of the subject was meant to aid in parrying the animadversions likely to fall on the motion of D^r M^cClurg, for whom J. M. had a particular regard. The Doc^r though possessing talents of the highest order was modest & unaccustomed to exert them in public debate.--Note in Madison's handwriting.

Col. Mason. This motion was made some time ago & negatived by a very large majority. He trusted that it w^d be again negatived. It w^d be impossible to define the misbehaviour in such a manner as to subject it to a proper trial; and perhaps still more impossible to compel so high an offender holding his office by such a tenure to submit to a trial. He considered an Executive during good behavior as a softer name only for an Executive for life. And that the next would be an easy step to hereditary Monarchy. If the motion should finally succeed, he might himself live to see such a Revolution. If he did not it was probable his children or grand children would. He trusted there were few men in that House who wished for it. No state he was sure had so far revolted from Republican principles as to have the least bias in its favor.

M^r Madison, was not apprehensive of being thought to favor any step towards monarchy. The real object with him was to prevent its introduction. Experience had proved a tendency in our governments to throw all power into the Legislative vortex. The Executives of the States are in general little more than Cyphers; the legislatures omnipotent. If no effectual check be devised for restraining the instability & encroachments of the latter, a revolution of some kind or other would be inevitable. The preservation of Republican Gov^t therefore required some expedient for the purpose, but required evidently at the same time that in devising it, the genuine principles of that form should be kept in view.

M^r Gov^r Morris was as little a friend to monarchy as any gentleman. He concurred in the opinion that the way to keep out monarchical Gov^t was to establish such a Repub. Gov^t as w^d make the people happy and prevent a desire of change.

Doc^r McClurg was not so much afraid of the shadow of monarchy as to be unwilling to approach it; nor so wedded to Republican Gov^t as not to be sensible of the tyrannies that had been & may be exercised under that form. It was an essential object with him to make the Executive independent of the Legislature; and the only mode left for effecting it, after the vote destroying his ineligibility a second time, was to appoint him during good behavior.

On the question for inserting "during good behavior" in place of '7 years (with a re-eligibility)' it passed in the negative,

Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.[136]

[136] (This vote is not considered as any certain index of opinion, as a number in the affirmative probably had it chiefly in view to alarm those attached to a dependence of the Executive on the Legislature, & thereby facilitate some final arrangement of a contrary tendency. The avowed friends of an Executive, during good behaviour were not more than three or four, nor is it certain they would finally have adhered to such a tenure, an independence of the three great departments of each other, as far as possible, and the responsibility of all to the will of the community seemed to be generally admitted as the true basis of a well constructed government.)--Note in Madison's hand, except from the words "nor is it certain" etc., which is in the hand of his wife's brother, John C. Payne.

On the motion "to strike out seven years" it passed in the negative,

Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.[137]

[137] (There was no debate on this motion. The apparent object of many in the affirmative was to secure the re-eligibility by shortening the term, and of many in the negative to embarrass the plan of referring the appointment and dependence of the Executive to the Legislature.)--Note in Madison's hand.

It was now unanimously agreed that the vote which had struck out the words "to be ineligible a second time" should be reconsidered to-morrow.

Adj^d.

WEDNESDAY JULY 18. IN CONVENTION.

On motion of M^r L. Martin to fix tomorrow for reconsidering the vote concerning "eligibility of the Exec^{tive} a 2^d time" it passed in the affirmative.

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. absent. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. absent.

The residue of the Resol. 9. concerning the Executive was postp^d till tomorrow.

Resol. 10. that Executive sh^l have a right to negative legislative acts not afterwards passed by 2/3 of each branch, agreed to nem. con.

Resol. 11. "that a Nat^l Judiciary shall be estab^d to consist of one supreme tribunal", ag^d to nem. con.

"The judges of which to be appoint^d by the 2^d branch of the Nat^l Legislature,"

M^r Ghorum, w^d prefer an appointment by the 2^d branch to an appointm^t by the whole Legislature; but he thought even that branch too numerous, and too little personally responsible, to ensure a good choice. He suggested that the Judges be appointed by the Execu^{ve} with the advice & consent of the 2^d branch, in the mode prescribed by the constitution of Mas^{ts}. This mode had been long practised in that country, & was found to answer perfectly well.

M^r Wilson, still w^d prefer an appointm^t by the Executive; but if that could not be attained, w^d prefer in the next place, the mode suggested by M^r Ghorum. He thought it his duty however to move in the first instance "that the Judges be appointed by the Executive." M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r L. Martin was strenuous for an app^t by the 2^d branch. Being taken from all the States it w^d be best informed of characters & most capable of making a fit choice.

M^r Sherman concurred in the observations of M^r Martin, adding that the Judges ought to be diffused, which would be more likely to be attended to by the 2^d branch, than by the Executive.

M^r Mason. The mode of appointing the Judges may depend in some degree on the mode of trying impeachments of the Executive. If the Judges were to form a tribunal for that purpose, they surely ought not to be appointed by the Executive. There were insuperable objections besides ag^{st} referring the appointment to the Executive. He mentioned as one, that as the Seat of Gov^t must be in some one State, and as the Executive would remain in office for a considerable time, for 4. 5. or 6 years at least, he would insensibly form local & personal attachments within the particular State that would deprive equal merit elsewhere, of an equal chance of promotion.

M^r Ghorum. As the Executive will be responsible in point of character at least, for a judicious and faithful discharge of his trust, he will be careful to look through all the States for proper characters. The Senators will be as likely to form their attachments at the seat of Gov^t where they reside, as the Executive. If they cannot get the man of the particular State to which they may respectively belong, they will be indifferent to the rest. Public bodies feel no personal responsibility, and give full play to intrigue & cabal. Rh. Island is a full illustration of the insensibility to character produced by a participation of numbers in dishonorable measures, and of the length to which a Public body may carry wickedness & cabal.

M^r Gov^r Morris supposed it would be improper for an impeachm^t of the Executive to be tried before the Judges. The latter would in such case be drawn into intrigues with the Legislature and an impartial trial would be frustrated. As they w^d be much about the Seat of Gov^t they might even be previously consulted & arrangements might be made for a prosecution of the Executive. He thought therefore that no argument could be drawn from the probability of such a plan of impeachments ag^{st} the motion before the House.

M^r Madison suggested that the Judges might be appointed by the Executive, with the concurrence of 1/3 at least, of the 2^d branch. This would unite the advantage of responsibility in the Executive with the security afforded in the 2^d branch ag^{st} any incautious or corrupt nomination by the Executive.

M^r Sherman, was clearly for an election by the Senate. It would be composed of men nearly equal to the Executive, and would of course have on the whole more wisdom. They would bring into their deliberations a more diffusive knowledge of characters. It would be less easy for candidates to intrigue with them, than with the Executive Magistrate. For these reasons he thought there would be a better security for a proper choice in the Senate than in the Executive.

M^r Randolph. It is true that when the app^t of the Judges was vested in the 2^d branch an equality of votes had not been given to it. Yet he had rather leave the appointm^t there than give it to the Executive. He thought the advantage of personal responsibility might be gained in the Senate by requiring the respective votes of the members to be entered on the Journal. He thought too that the hope of receiving app^{ts} would be more diffusive if they depended on the Senate, the members of which w^d be diffusively known, than if they depended on a single man who could not be personally known to a very great extent; and consequently that opposition to the System, would be so far weakened.

M^r Bedford thought there were solid reasons ag^{st} leaving the appointment to the Executive. He must trust more to information than the Senate. It would put it in his power to gain over the larger States, by gratifying them with a preference of their Citizens. The responsibility of the Executive so much talked of was chimerical. He could not be punished for mistakes.

M^r Ghorum remarked that the Senate could have no better information than the Executive. They must like him, trust to information from the members belonging to the particular State where the candidate resided. The Executive would certainly be more answerable for a good appointment, as the whole blame of a bad one would fall on him alone. He did not mean that he would be answerable under any other penalty than that of public censure, which with honorable minds was a sufficient one.

On the question for referring the appointment of the Judges to the Executive, instead of the 2^d branch

Mas. ay. Con^t no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. absent.

M^r Ghorum moved "that the Judges be nominated and appointed by the Executive, by & with the advice & consent of the 2^d branch & every such nomination shall be made at least ---- days prior to such appointment." This mode he said had been ratified by the experience of a 140 years in Massachus^{ts}. If the app^t should be left to either branch of the Legislature, it will be a mere piece of jobbing.

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ded} & supported the motion.

M^r Sherman thought it less objectionable than an absolute appointment by the Executive; but disliked it, as too much fettering the Senate.

Question on M^r Ghorum's motion

Mas. ay. Con^t no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. absent.

M^r Madison moved that the Judges should be nominated by the Executive & such nomination should become an appointment if not disagreed to within ---- days by 2/3 of the 2^d branch.

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ded} the motion. By co[~m]on consent the consideration of it was postponed till tomorrow.

"To hold their offices during good behavior" & "to receive fixed salaries" agreed to nem: con:.

"In which (salaries of Judges) no increase or diminution shall be made so as to affect the persons at the time in office."

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out "or increase." He thought the Legislature ought to be at liberty to increase salaries as circumstances might require, and that this would not create any improper dependence in the Judges.

Doc^r Franklin was in favor of the motion. Money may not only become plentier, but the business of the department may increase as the Country becomes more populous.

M^r Madison. The dependence will be less if the increase alone should be permitted, but it will be improper even so far to permit a dependence. Whenever an increase is wished by the Judges, or may be in agitation in the legislature, an undue complaisance in the former may be felt towards the latter. If at such a crisis there should be in Court suits to which leading members of the Legislature may be parties, the Judges will be in a situation which ought not to be suffered, if it can be prevented. The variations in the value of money, may be guarded ag^{st} by taking for a standard wheat or some other thing of permanent value. The increase of business will be provided for by an increase of the number who are to do it. An increase of salaries may easily be so contrived as not to affect persons in office.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The value of money may not only alter but the State of Society may alter. In this event the same quantity of wheat, the same value would not be the same compensation. The Amount of salaries must always be regulated by the manners & the style of living in a Country. The increase of business can not be provided for in the supreme tribunal in the way that has been mentioned. All the business of a certain description whether more or less must be done in that single tribunal. Additional labor alone in the Judges can provide for additional business. Additional compensation therefore ought not to be prohibited.

On the question for striking out "or increase"

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. absent

The whole clause as amended was then agreed to nem: con:

12. Resol: "that Nat^l Legislature be empowered to appoint inferior tribunals"

M^r Butler could see no necessity for such tribunals. The State Tribunals might do the business.

M^r L. Martin concurred. They will create jealousies & oppositions in the State tribunals, with the jurisdiction of which they will interfere.

M^r Ghorum. There are in the States already federal Courts with jurisdiction for trial of piracies &c. committed on the Seas. No complaints have been made by the States or the Courts of the States. Inferior tribunals are essential to render the authority of the Nat^l Legislature effectual.

M^r Randolph observed that the Courts of the States can not be trusted with the administration of the National laws. The objects of jurisdiction are such as will often place the General & local policy at variance.

M^r Gov^r Morris urged also the necessity of such a provision.

M^r Sherman was willing to give the power to the Legislature but wished them to make use of the State Tribunals whenever it could be done with safety to the general interest.

Col. Mason thought many circumstances might arise not now to be foreseen, which might render such a power absolutely necessary.

On question for agreeing to 12. Resol: empowering the National Legislature to appoint "inferior tribunals," Ag^d to nem. con.

"Impeachments of national officers," were struck out on motion for the purpose.

13. Resol: "The jurisdiction of the Nat^l Judiciary." Several criticisms having been made on the definition; it was proposed by M^r Madison so to alter it as to read thus--"that the jurisdiction shall extend to all cases arising under the Nat^l laws; And to such other questions as may involve the Nat^l peace & harmony," which was agreed to, nem. con.

Resol. 14. providing for the admission of new States agreed to, nem. con.

Resol. 15. that provision ought to be made for the continuance of Cong^s &c. & for the completion of their engagements."

M^r Gov^r Morris thought the assumption of their engagements might as well be omitted; and that Cong^s ought not to be continued till all the States should adopt the reform; since it may become expedient to give effect to it whenever a certain number of States shall adopt it.

M^r Madison the clause can mean nothing more than that provision ought to be made for preventing an interregnum; which must exist in the interval between the adoption of the New Gov^t and the commencement of its operation, if the old Gov^t should cease on the first of these events.

M^r Wilson did not entirely approve of the manner in which the clause relating to the engagements of Cong^s was expressed; but he thought some provision on the subject would be proper in order to prevent any suspicion that the obligations of the Confederacy might be dissolved along with the Govern^t under which they were contracted.

On the question on the 1^{st} part--relating to the continuance of Cong^s.

Mas. no. Con^t no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C.[138] ay. Geo. no.

[138] In the printed Journal, S. Carolina--no. Note in Madison's hand.

The 2^d part as to completion of their engagements, disag^d to, nem. con.

Resol. 16. "That a Republican Constitution & its existing laws ought to be guaranteed to each State by the U. States."

M^r Gov^r Morris, thought the Resol: very objectionable. He should be very unwilling that such laws as exist in R. Island should be guaranteed.

M^r Wilson. The object is merely to secure the States ag^{st} dangerous commotions, insurrections and rebellions.

Col. Mason. If the Gen^l Gov^t should have no right to suppress rebellions ag^{st} particular States, it will be in a bad situation indeed. As Rebellions ag^{st} itself originate in & ag^{st} individual States, it must remain a passive Spectator of its own subversion.

M^r Randolph. The Resol^n has 2. objects. 1. to secure a Republican Government. 2. to suppress domestic commotions. He urged the necessity of both these provisions.

M^r Madison moved to substitute "that the Constitutional authority of the States shall be guaranteed to them respectively ag^{st} domestic as well as foreign violence."

Doc^r McClurg seconded the motion.

M^r Houston was afraid of perpetuating the existing Constitutions of the States. That of Georgia was a very bad one, and he hoped would be revised & amended. It may also be difficult for the Gen^l Gov^t to decide between contending parties each of which claim the sanction of the Constitution.

M^r L. Martin was for leaving the States to suppress Rebellions themselves.

M^r Ghorum thought it strange that a Rebellion should be known to exist in the Empire, and the Gen^l Gov^t sh^d be restrained from interposing to subdue it. At this rate an enterprising Citizen might erect the standard of Monarchy in a particular State, might gather together partizans from all quarters, might extend his views from State to State, and threaten to establish a tyranny over the whole & the Gen^l Gov^t be compelled to remain an inactive witness of its own destruction. With regard to different parties in a State; as long as they confine their disputes to words, they will be harmless to the Gen^l Gov^t & to each other. If they appeal to the sword, it will then be necessary for the Gen^l Gov^t, however difficult it may be to decide on the merits of their contest, to interpose & put an end to it.

M^r Carrol. Some such provision is essential. Every State ought to wish for it. It has been doubted whether it is a casus federis at the present. And no room ought to be left for such a doubt hereafter.

M^r Randolph moved to add as an amend^t to the motion; "and that no State be at liberty to form any other than a Republican Gov^t." M^r Madison seconded the motion.

M^r Rutlidge thought it unnecessary to insert any guarantee. No doubt could be entertained but that Cong^s had the authority if they had the means to co-operate with any State in subduing a rebellion. It was & would be involved in the nature of the thing.

M^r Wilson moved as a better expression of the idea, "that a Republican form of Governm^t shall be guaranteed to each State & that each State shall be protected ag^{st} foreign & domestic violence.

This seeming to be well received, M^r Madison & M^r Randolph withdrew their propositions & on the Question for agreeing to M^r Wilson's motion, it passed nem. con.

Adj^d.

END OF VOL. 1.

Transcriber Notes:

Passages in italics were indicated by underscores.

Small caps were replaced with ALL CAPS.

Throughout the document, the oe ligature was replaced with "oe".

Throughout the document, a tilded m is represented by [~m], and a tilded nn is represented by [~nn].

Throughout the document, a single superscripted letter is represented by that single letter preceded by a caret, and more than one superscripted letters are represented by the letters enclosed by curly brackets. Thus, the word "y^e" represents a word where the "y" is normal and the "e" is superscripted; and the word "2^{dnd}" represents a word where the "2" is normal and the "dnd" is superscripted. In both conventions, it is assumed that a dot appeared below the superscripted letters, since in the original text a dot was often (but not always) present under the superscripted letters. Thus, "2^{dnd}" in the present text would represent a normal digit "2" followed directly by the superscripted letters "dnd" with a single dot below the set of three letters.

The Contents of Volume I. page incorrectly lists the Chronology as starting on page xix, where it starts on page xv.

The illustrations have been moved so that they do not break up paragraphs and so that they are next to the text they illustrate. Thus the page number of the illustration might not match the page number in the List of Fac-Similes, and the order of illustrations may not be the same in the List of Fac-Similes and in the book.

This document was filled with errors and inconsistencies in punctuations and hyphenation. For example, usually the word re-eligible is hyphenated, but sometimes it is not; sometimes; reinstated is hyphenated but sometimes it is not; and usually the comma is used as a thousand mark, but sometimes a period is used for that purpose. Also, the abbreviations were not uniform (e.g., Mas. v. Mass.), which were only corrected when it was clear which abbreviation was considered correct at the time printed. Another example is the abbreviation for Resolution, which was sometimes Resol:^n, sometimes Resol^n, and sometimes Resol.^n Sometimes "nem: con." was used, and sometimes "nem. con." was used. The only time errors were corrected was when it was very clear that an error was made, and it was clear how the error should be corrected, and those corrections are listed below. Two exceptions are the case where a period is missing at the end of a sentence or missing at the end of an abbreviation, both of which happened so often that those corrections were made but were not listed below.

Similarly, since the English language has changed so much in the past two hundred years, variations in spelling were only corrected was when it was very clear that an error was made, and it was clear how the error should be corrected. Those corrections are listed below.

In Footnote 25, two instances of "thier" was replaced with "their".

On page 23, a comma was added after "Massachusetts".

On page 23, a comma was added after "New York".

On page 39, a comma was added after "Savannah Georgian".

On page 42, the semicolon after "for general propositions" was replaced with a period.

On page 49, a quotation mark was added after "be instituted.".

On page 67, "tranquility" was replaced with "tranquillity".

On page 80, "is to to be" was replaced with "is to be".

On page 85, a period was added after "2".

On page 85, a period was added after "4".

On page 87, a comma was added after "the landed".

On page 104, "that" was replaced with "than".

On page 105, "M^r Bedford In" was replaced with "M^r Bedford, in".

On page 109, "M^r Randolph, urged" was replaced with "M^r Randolph urged".

On page 117, "against the 43." was replaced with "against the 43,".

On page 119, "it was formerly practised" was replaced with "It was formerly practised".

On page 119, "Wilsons" was replaced with "Wilson's".

On page 128, a closing quotation mark was placed after "7 years."

On page 143, a period was added after "2".

On page 159, "unamimous" was replaced with "unanimous".

On page 162, the quotation mark was removed before "The supreme Legislative power".

In Footnote 89, "conpensation" was replaced with "compensation".

In Footnote 89, "misdemesnor" was replaced with "misdemeanor".

In Footnote 89, "Where shall be" was replaced with "There shall be".

In Footnote 89, "§[2]" was replaced with "§ 2.".

On page 164, "Comittee" was replaced with "Committee".

On page 180, "tranquility" was replaced with "tranquillity".

On page 184, "necessaryly" was replaced with "necessarily".

In Footnote 95, "posseses" was replaced with "possesses".

On page 211, "Wiliamson" was replaced with "Williamson".

On page 217, in two instances, "Masst^s" was replaced with "Mass^{ts}".

On page 220, a comma was deleted after "M^r Sherman".

On page 233, a period was placed after "1".

On page 236, a quotation mark was placed after "behaviour".

On page 256, a comma was placed after "Antient Greece".

On page 264, a semicolon was replaced with a period.

On page 271, "Comittee" was replaced with "Committee".

On page 274, "prepondenancy" was replaced with "preponderancy".

On page 285, "Elsewth" was replaced with "Elseworth".

On page 285, "Contstitution" was replaced with "Constitution".

On page 286, "honorabl" was replaced with "honorable".

On page 292, "occcasion" was replaced with "occasion".

On page 293, "N J." was replaced with "N. J.".

On page 322, "Teusday" was replaced with "Tuesday".

On page 322, "Hamshire" was replaced with "Hampshire".

On page 323, "Hamshire" was replaced with "Hampshire".

On page 323, "inhabts" was replaced with "inhab^{ts}".

On page 323, "brethern" was replaced with "brethren".

On page 330, "brethern" was replaced with "brethren".

On page 336, "Mississpi" was replaced with "Mississippi".

On page 340, "Mard" was replaced with "M^d".

On page 340, "S." was replaced with "S. C.".

On page 348, "Hamshire" was replaced with "Hampshire".

On page 356, "weekest" was replaced with "weakest".

On page 365, "orginal" was replaced with "original".

On page 372, the quotation mark was removed before "or in which the harmony".

Throughout the document, there are instances of missing quotation marks, but it is unclear where quotation marks should be added. In those cases, the quotation marks were left as-is.

Throughout the document, "Maddison" was replaced with "Madison", and "Sharman" was replaced with "Sherman".

Although the document refers more often to a Mr. Patterson, instead of Mr. Paterson, some external sources indicate that the delegate's name was Mr. Paterson. Both spellings were retained as-is.

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention, vol. 2 (Gaillard Hunt, ed., 1908)

Produced by David Garcia, Ernest Schaal, and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at http://www.pgdp.net (This book was produced from scanned images of public domain material from the Google Print project.)

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention Which Framed The Constitution of the United States May-September, 1787

As Recorded by James Madison

Edited by Gaillard Hunt

In Two Volumes

Volume II

G. P. Putnam's Sons New York and London =The Knickerbocker Press= 1908

=The Knickerbocker Press, New York=

CONTENTS OF VOLUME II.

PAGE Chronology vii Journal of the Constitutional Convention 1 Index 417

* * * * *

Fac-Simile. Facing Page

FAC-SIMILE.

FACING PAGE First Page of the Constitution, reduced 414

CHRONOLOGY OF JAMES MADISON. 1787.

* * * * *

1787 July 19. Advocates election of the Executive by the people.

July 20. Speaks in favor of making the Executive impeachable.

July 21. Seconds proposition to include the Judiciary with the Executive in power to revise laws.

Moves that judges be appointed by the Executive with concurrence of two-thirds of Senate.

July 25. Shows the difficulty of devising satisfactory mode of selecting Executive.

August 7. Advocates liberal suffrage.

August 8. Moves that basis of representation in House of Representatives be one to not more than 40,000 inhabitants.

Opposes proposition that money bills originate only in House of Representatives.

August 9. Opposes incorporation in constitution of provision against persons of foreign birth holding office.

August 10. Moves that legislature have power to compel attendance of members.

August 11. Moves that Congress publish its journals, except such parts of Senate proceedings as may be ordered kept secret.

Advocates a centrally located capital.

August 13. Seconds motion in favor of liberal treatment of foreigners.

Speaks in favor of participation of Senate in making appropriations.

August 15. Moves that all bills be passed upon by the Executive and Judiciary before becoming laws.

August 16. Advocates national power to tax exports.

August 17. Moves that legislature have power to declare war.

August 18. Submits propositions for national power over public lands, to form governments for new States, over Indian affairs, over seat of government, to grant charters of incorporation, copyrights, to establish a university, grant patents, acquire forts, magazines, etc.

Speaks in favor of national control of militia.

August 22. Appointed on committee to consider navigation acts.

Moves that States have power to appoint militia officers under rank of general officers.

Moves to commit question of negative of State laws.

Moves to include the Executive in treaty-making power.

August 25. Declares it is wrong to admit the idea of property in men in constitution.

August 27. Suggests that in case of death of President his council may act.

Moves form of oath for President.

Moves that judges' salaries be fixed.

Expresses doubt whether Judiciary should have power over cases arising under constitution.

August 28. Moves that States be forbidden to lay embargoes, export and import duties.

August 29. Speaks in favor of navigation acts.

August 31. Moves that ratification of constitution be by a majority of States and people.

Advocates ratification by State conventions.

Appointed on committee to consider parts of constitution and propositions not yet acted upon.

Sept 3. Thinks eventual election of President by legislature should be made difficult.

Sept 7. Moves that Senate have power to make treaties of peace without President.

Sept 8. Moves that quorum of Senate be two-thirds of all the members.

Seconds motion to increase representation.

Sept 14. Suggests that legislature should have power to grant charters of incorporation.

Sept 17. Signs constitution.

JOURNAL OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION OF 1787.

THURSDAY JULY 19. IN CONVENTION.

On reconsideration of the vote rendering the Executive re-eligible a 2^d time, M^r Martin moved to re-instate the words, "to be ineligible a 2^d time."

M^r Governeur Morris. It is necessary to take into one view all that relates to the establishment of the Executive; on the due formation of which must depend the efficacy & utility of the Union among the present and future States. It has been a maxim in Political Science that Republican Government is not adapted to a large extent of Country, because the energy of the Executive Magistracy can not reach the extreme parts of it. Our Country is an extensive one. We must either then renounce the blessings of the Union, or provide an Executive with sufficient vigor to pervade every part of it. This subject was of so much importance that he hoped to be indulged in an extensive view of it. One great object of the Executive is to controul the Legislature. The Legislature will continually seek to aggrandize & perpetuate themselves; and will seize those critical moments produced by war, invasion or convulsion for that purpose. It is necessary then that the Executive Magistrate should be the guardian of the people, even of the lower classes, ag^{st} Legislative tyranny, against the Great & the wealthy who in the course of things will necessarily compose the Legislative body. Wealth tends to corrupt the mind to nourish its love of power, and to stimulate it to oppression. History proves this to be the spirit of the opulent. The check provided in the 2^d branch was not meant as a check on Legislative usurpations of power, but on the abuse of lawful powers, on the propensity in the 1^{st} branch to legislate too much to run into projects of paper money & similar expedients. It is no check on Legislative tyranny. On the contrary it may favor it, and if the 1^{st} branch can be seduced may find the means of success. The Executive therefore ought to be so constituted as to be the great protector of the Mass of the people.--It is the duty of the Executive to appoint the officers & to command the forces of the Republic: to appoint 1. ministerial officers for the administration of public affairs. 2. officers for the dispensation of Justice. Who will be the best Judges whether these appointments be well made? The people at large, who will know, will see, will feel the effects of them. Again who can judge so well of the discharge of military duties for the protection & security of the people, as the people themselves who are to be protected & secured? He finds too that the Executive is not to be re-eligible. What effect will this have? 1. it will destroy the great incitement to merit public esteem by taking away the hope of being rewarded with a reappointment. It may give a dangerous turn to one of the strongest passions in the human breast. The love of fame is the great spring to noble & illustrious actions. Shut the Civil road to Glory & he may be compelled to seek it by the sword. 2. It will tempt him to make the most of the short space of time allotted him, to accumulate wealth and provide for his friends. 3. It will produce violations of the very constitution it is meant to secure. In moments of pressing danger the tried abilities and established character of a favorite magistrate will prevail over respect for the forms of the Constitution. The Executive is also to be impeachable. This is a dangerous part of the plan. It will hold him in such dependence that he will be no check on the Legislature, will not be a firm guardian of the people and of the public interest. He will be the tool of a faction, of some leading demagogue in the Legislature. These then are the faults of the Executive establishment as now proposed. Can no better establish^t be devised? If he is to be the Guardian of the people let him be appointed by the people? If he is to be a check on the Legislature let him not be impeachable. Let him be of short duration, that he may with propriety be re-eligible. It has been said that the candidates for this office will not be known to the people. If they be known to the Legislature, they must have such a notoriety and eminence of Character, that they cannot possibly be unknown to the people at large. It cannot be possible that a man shall have sufficiently distinguished himself to merit this high trust without having his character proclaimed by fame throughout the Empire. As to the danger from an Unimpeachable magistrate he could not regard it as formidable. There must be certain great Officers of State; a minister of finance, of war, of foreign affairs &c. These he presumes will exercise their functions in subordination to the Executive, and will be amenable by impeachment to the Public Justice. Without these ministers the Executive can do nothing of consequence. He suggested a biennial election of the Executive at the time of electing the 1^{st} branch, and the Executive to hold over, so as to prevent any interregnum in the administration. An election by the people at large throughout so great an extent of country could not be influenced by those little combinations and those momentary lies, which often decide popular elections within a narrow sphere. It will probably, be objected that the election will be influenced by the members of the Legislature; particularly of the 1^{st} branch, and that it will be nearly the same thing with an election by the Legislature itself. It could not be denied that such an influence would exist. But it might be answered that as the Legislature or the candidates for it would be divided, the enmity of one part would counteract the friendship of another; that if the administration of the Executive were good, it would be unpopular to oppose his re-election, if bad it ought to be opposed & a reappointm^t prevented; and lastly that in every view this indirect dependence on the favor of the Legislature could not be so mischievous as a direct dependence for his appointment. He saw no alternative for making the Executive independent of the Legislature but either to give him his office for life, or make him eligible by the people. Again, it might be objected that two years would be too short a duration. But he believes that as long as he should behave himself well, he would be continued in his place. The extent of the Country would secure his re-election ag^{st} the factions & discontents of particular States. It deserved consideration also that such an ingredient in the plan would render it extremely palatable to the people. These were the general ideas which occurred to him on the subject, and which led him to wish & move that the whole constitution of the Executive might undergo reconsideration.

M^r Randolph urged the motion of M^r L. Martin for restoring the words making the Executive ineligible a 2^d time. If he ought to be independent, he should not be left under a temptation to court a re-appointment. If he should be re-appointable by the Legislature, he will be no check on it. His revisionary power will be of no avail. He had always thought & contended as he still did that the danger apprehended by the little States was chimerical; but those who thought otherwise ought to be peculiarly anxious for the motion. If the Executive be appointed, as has been determined, by the Legislature, he will probably be appointed either by joint ballot of both houses, or be nominated by the 1^{st} and appointed by the 2^d branch. In either case the large States will preponderate. If he is to court the same influence for his re-appointment, will he not make his revisionary power, and all the other functions of his administration subservient to the views of the large States. Besides, is there not great reason to apprehend that in case he should be re-eligible, a false complaisance in the Legislature might lead them to continue an unfit man in office in preference to a fit one. It has been said that a constitutional bar to re-appointment will inspire unconstitutional endeavours to perpetuate himself. It may be answered that his endeavours can have no effect unless the people be corrupt to such a degree as to render all precautions hopeless; to which may be added that this argument supposes him to be more powerful & dangerous, than other arguments which have been used, admit, and consequently calls for stronger fetters on his authority. He thought an election by the Legislature with an incapacity to be elected a second time would be more acceptable to the people than the plan suggested by M^r Gov^r Morris.

M^r King did not like the ineligibility. He thought there was great force in the remark of M^r Sherman, that he who has proved himself most fit for an Office, ought not to be excluded by the constitution from holding it. He would therefore prefer any other reasonable plan that could be substituted. He was much disposed to think that in such cases the people at large would chuse wisely. There was indeed some difficulty arising from the improbability of a general concurrence of the people in favor of any one man. On the whole he was of opinion that an appointment by electors chosen by the people for the purpose, would be liable to fewest objections.

M^r Patterson's ideas nearly coincided he said with those of M^r King. He proposed that the Executive should be appointed by Electors to be chosen by the States in a ratio that would allow one elector to the smallest and three to the largest States.

M^r Wilson. It seems to be the unanimous sense that the Executive should not be appointed by the Legislature, unless he be rendered in-eligible a 2^d time: he perceived with pleasure that the idea was gaining ground, of an election mediately or immediately by the people.

M^r Madison. If it be a fundamental principle of free Gov^t that the Legislative, Executive & Judiciary powers should be separately exercised, it is equally so that they be independently exercised. There is the same & perhaps greater reason why the Executive sh^d be independent of the Legislature, than why the Judiciary should. A coalition of the two former powers would be more immediately & certainly dangerous to public liberty. It is essential then that the appointment of the Executive should either be drawn from some source, or held by some tenure that will give him a free agency with regard to the Legislature. This could not be if he was to be appointable from time to time by the Legislature. It was not clear that an appointment in the 1^{st} instance even with an ineligibility afterwards would not establish an improper connection between the two departments. Certain it was that the appointment would be attended with intrigues and contentions that ought not to be unnecessarily admitted. He was disposed for these reasons to refer the appointment to some other source. The people at large was in his opinion the fittest in itself. It would be as likely as any that could be devised to produce an Executive Magistrate of distinguished Character. The people generally could only know & vote for some Citizen whose merits had rendered him an object of general attention & esteem. There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to fewest objections.

M^r Gerry. If the Executive is to be elected by the Legislature he certainly ought not to be re-eligible. This would make him absolutely dependent. He was ag^{st} a popular election. The people are uninformed, and would be misled by a few designing men. He urged the expediency of an appointment of the Executive by Electors to be chosen by the State Executives. The people of the States will then choose the 1^{st} branch; the legislatures of the States the 2^d branch of the National Legislature, and the Executives of the States, the National Executive. This he thought would form a strong attachm^t in the States to the National System. The popular mode of electing the chief Magistrate would certainly be the worst of all. If he should be so elected & should do his duty, he will be turned out for it like Gov^r Bowdoin in Mass^{ts} & President Sullivan in N. Hampshire.

On the question on M^r Gov^r Morris motion to reconsider generally the Constitution of the Executive

Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. & all the others ay.

M^r Elseworth moved to strike out the appointm^t by the Nat^l Legislature, and to insert, to be chosen by electors appointed by the Legislatures of the States in the following ratio; to wit--one for each State not exceeding 200,000[1] inhab^{ts} two for each above y^t number & not exceeding 300,000. and three for each State exceeding 300,000.--M^r Broome 2^{ded}. the motion.[2]

[1] The Journal gives it 100,000.--Journal of the Federal Convention, 190.

[2] "Mr. Broom is a plain good Man, with some abilities, but nothing to render him conspicuous. He is silent in public, but chearful and conversable in private. He is about 35 years old."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 330.

M^r Rutlidge was opposed to all the modes, except the appointm^t by the Nat^l Legislature. He will be sufficiently independent, if he be not re-eligible.

M^r Gerry preferred the motion of M^r Elseworth to an appointm^t by the Nat^l Legislature, or by the people; tho' not to an app^t by the State Executives. He moved that the electors proposed by M^r E. should be 25 in number, and allotted in the following proportion. to N. H. 1. to Mas. 3. to R. I. 1. to Con^t 2. to N. Y. 2. N. J. 2. P^a 3. Del. 1. M^d 2. V^a 3. N. C. 2. S. C. 2. Geo. 1.

The question as moved by M^r Elseworth being divided, on the 1^{st} part shall y^e Nat^l Executive be appointed by Electors?

Mas. div^d. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On 2^d part shall the Electors be chosen by the State Legislatures?

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The part relating to the ratio in which the States s^d chuse electors was postponed nem. con.

M^r L. Martin moved that the Executive be ineligible a 2^d time.

M^r Williamson, 2^{ds} the motion. He had no great confidence in Electors to be chosen for the special purpose. They would not be the most respectable citizens; but persons not occupied in the high offices of Gov^t. They would be liable to undue influence, which might the more readily be practised as some of them will probably be in appointment 6 or 8 months before the object of it comes on.

M^r Elseworth supposed any persons might be appointed Electors, excepting, solely, members of the Nat^l Legislature.

On the question Shall he be ineligible a 2^d time?

Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On the question Shall the Executive continue for 7 years? It passed in the negative

Mas. div^d. Con^t ay.[3] N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. div^d. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

[3] In the printed Journal Con^t, no: N. Jersey ay.--Madison's Note.

M^r King was afraid we sh^d shorten the term too much.

M^r Gov^r Morris was for a short term, in order to avoid impeach^{ts} which w^d be otherwise necessary.

M^r Butler was ag^{st} the frequency of the elections. Geo. & S. C. were too distant to send electors often.

M^r Elseworth was for 6 years. If the elections be too frequent, the Executive will not be firm eno. There must be duties which will make him unpopular for the moment. There will be outs as well as ins. His administration therefore will be attacked and misrepresented.

M^r Williamson was for 6 years. The expence will be considerable & ought not to be unnecessarily repeated. If the Elections are too frequent, the best men will not undertake the service and those of an inferior character will be liable to be corrupted.

On the question for 6 years?

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Adjourned

FRIDAY JULY 20. IN CONVENTION.

The postponed Ratio of Electors for appointing the Executive; to wit 1 for each State whose inhabitants do not exceed 100.000. &c. being taken up.

M^r Madison observed that this would make in time all or nearly all the States equal. Since there were few that would not in time contain the number of inhabitants intitling them to 3 Electors; that this ratio ought either to be made temporary, or so varied as that it would adjust itself to the growing population of the States.

M^r Gerry moved that in the 1^{st} instance the Electors should be allotted to the States in the following ratio: to N. H. 1. Mass. 3. R. I. 1. Con^t 2. N. Y. 2. N. J. 2. P^a 3. Del. 1. M^d 2. V^a 3. N. C. 2. S. C. 2. Geo. 1.

On the question to postpone in order to take up this motion of M^r Gerry. It passed in the affirmative

Mass. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Elseworth moved that 2 Electors be allotted to N. H. Some rule ought to be pursued; and N. H. has more than 100,000 inhabitants. He thought it would be proper also to allot 2. to Georgia.

M^r Broom & M^r Martin moved to postpone M^r Gerry's allotment of Electors, leaving a fit ratio to be reported by the Committee to be appointed for detailing the Resolutions.

On this motion,

Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Houston 2^{ded} the motion of M^r Elseworth to add another Elector to N. H. & Georgia. On the Question;

Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Williamson moved as an amendment to M^r Gerry's allotment of Electors in the 1^{st} instance that in future elections of the Nat^l Executive, the number of Electors to be appointed by the several States shall be regulated by their respective numbers of Representatives in the 1^{st} branch pursuing as nearly as may be the present proportions.

On question on M^r Gerry's ratio of Electors

Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

"to be removable on impeachment and conviction for malpractice or neglect of duty," see Resol. 9.

M^r Pinkney & M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out this part of the Resolution. M^r P. observ^d he ought not to be impeachable whilst in office.

M^r Davie. If he be not impeachable whilst in office, he will spare no efforts or means whatever to get himself re-elected. He considered this as an essential security for the good behaviour of the Executive.

M^r Wilson concurred in the necessity of making the Executive impeachable whilst in office.

M^r Gov^r Morris. He can do no criminal act without Coadjutors who may be punished. In case he should be re-elected, that will be a sufficient proof of his innocence. Besides who is to impeach? Is the impeachment to suspend his functions. If it is not the mischief will go on. If it is the impeachment will be nearly equivalent to a displacement, and will render the Executive dependent on those who are to impeach.

Col. Mason. No point is of more importance than that the right of impeachment should be continued. Shall any man be above Justice? Above all shall that man be above it, who can commit the most extensive injustice? When great crimes were committed he was for punishing the principal as well as the Coadjutors. There had been much debate & difficulty as to the mode of chusing the Executive. He approved of that which had been adopted at first, namely of referring the appointment to the Nat^l Legislature. One objection ag^{st} Electors was the danger of their being corrupted by the Candidates, & this furnished a peculiar reason in favor of impeachments whilst in office. Shall the man who has practised corruption & by that means procured his appointment in the first instance, be suffered to escape punishment, by repeating his guilt?

Doc^r Franklin was for retaining the clause as favorable to the Executive. History furnishes one example only of a first Magistrate being formally brought to public Justice. Every body cried out ag^{st} this as unconstitutional. What was the practice before this in cases where the Chief Magistrate rendered himself obnoxious? Why recourse was had to assassination in w^{ch} he was not only deprived of his life but of the opportunity of vindicating his character. It w^d be the best way therefore to provide in the Constitution for the regular punishment of the Executive where his misconduct should deserve it, and for his honorable acquittal where he should be unjustly accused.

M^r Gov^r Morris admits corruption & some few other offences to be such as ought to be impeachable; but thought the cases ought to be enumerated & defined.

M^r Madison thought it indispensable that some provision should be made for defending the Community ag^{st} the incapacity, negligence or perfidy of the chief Magistrate. The limitation of the period of his service was not a sufficient security. He might lose his capacity after his appointment. He might pervert his administration into a scheme of peculation or oppression. He might betray his trust to foreign powers. The case of the Executive Magistracy was very distinguishable, from that of the Legislature or any other public body, holding offices of limited duration. It could not be presumed that all or even a majority of the members of an Assembly would either lose their capacity for discharging, or be bribed to betray, their trust. Besides the restraints of their personal integrity & honor, the difficulty of acting in concert for purposes of corruption was a security to the Public. And if one or a few members only should be seduced, the soundness of the remaining members, would maintain the integrity and fidelity of the body. In the case of the Executive Magistracy which was to be administered by a single man, loss of capacity or corruption was more within the compass of probable events, and either of them might be fatal to the Republic.

M^r Pinkney did not see the necessity of impeachments. He was sure they ought not to issue from the Legislature who would in that case hold them as a rod over the Executive and by that means effectually destroy his independence. His revisionary power in particular would be rendered altogether insignificant.

M^r Gerry urged the necessity of impeachments. A good Magistrate will not fear them. A bad one ought to be kept in fear of them. He hoped the maxim would never be adopted here that the chief magistrate could do no wrong.

M^r King expressed his apprehensions that an extreme caution in favor of liberty might enervate the Government we were forming. He wished the House to recur to the primitive axiom that the three great departments of Gov^{ts} should be separate & independent: that the Executive & Judiciary should be so as well as the Legislative: that the Executive should be so equally with the Judiciary. Would this be the case, if the Executive should be impeachable? It had been said that the Judiciary would be impeachable. But it should have been remembered at the same time that the Judiciary hold their places not for a limited time, but during good behaviour. It is necessary therefore that a form should be established for trying misbehaviour. Was the Executive to hold his place during good behaviour? The Executive was to hold his place for a limited term like the members of the Legislature. Like them, particularly the Senate whose members would continue in appointm^t the same term of 6 years he would periodically be tried for his behaviour by his electors, who would continue or discontinue him in trust according to the manner in which he had discharged it. Like them therefore, he ought to be subject to no intermediate trial, by impeachment. He ought not to be impeachable unless he held his office during good behavior, a tenure which would be most agreeable to him; provided an independent and effectual forum could be devised. But under no circumstances ought he to be impeachable by the Legislature. This would be destructive of his independence and of the principles of the Constitution. He relied on the vigor of the Executive as a great security for the public liberties.

M^r Randolph. The propriety of impeachments was a favorite principle with him. Guilt wherever found ought to be punished. The Executive will have great opportunitys of abusing his power; particularly in time of war when the military force, and in some respects the Public money will be in his hands. Should no regular punishment be provided, it will be irregularly inflicted by tumults & insurrections. He is aware of the necessity of proceeding with a cautious hand, and of excluding as much as possible the influence of the Legislature from the business. He suggested for consideration an idea which had fallen (from Col. Hamilton) of composing a forum out of the Judges belonging to the States: and even of requiring some preliminary inquest whether just ground of impeachment existed.

Doct^r Franklin mentioned the case of the Prince of Orange during the late war. An agreement was made between France & Holland; by which their two fleets were to unite at a certain time & place. The Dutch fleet did not appear. Every body began to wonder at it. At length it was suspected that the Statholder was at the bottom of the matter. This suspicion prevailed more & more. Yet as he could not be impeached and no regular examination took place, he remained in his office, and strengthening his own party, as the party opposed to him became formidable, he gave birth to the most violent animosities & contentions. Had he been impeachable, a regular & peaceable enquiry would have taken place and he would if guilty have been duly punished, if innocent restored to the confidence of the Public.

M^r King remarked that the case of the Statholder was not applicable. He held his place for life, and was not periodically elected. In the former case impeachments are proper to secure good behaviour. In the latter they are unnecessary; the periodical responsibility to the electors being an equivalent security.

M^r Wilson observed that if the idea were to be pursued, the Senators who are to hold their places during the same term with the Executive, ought to be subject to impeachment & removal.

M^r Pinkney apprehended that some gentlemen reasoned on a supposition that the Executive was to have powers which would not be committed to him: He presumed that his powers would be so circumscribed as to render impeachments unnecessary.

M^r Gov^r Morris's opinion had been changed by the arguments used in the discussion. He was now sensible of the necessity of impeachments, if the Executive was to continue for any length of time in office. Our Executive was not like a Magistrate having a life interest, much less like one having an hereditary interest in his office. He may be bribed by a greater interest to betray his trust; and no one would say that we ought to expose ourselves to the danger of seeing the first Magistrate in foreign pay, without being able to guard ag^{st} it by displacing him. One would think the King of England well secured ag^{st} bribery. He has as it were a fee simple in the whole Kingdom. Yet Charles II. was bribed by Louis XIV. The Executive ought therefore to be impeachable for treachery: Corrupting his electors, and incapacity were other causes of impeachment. For the latter he should be punished not as a man, but as an officer, and punished only by degradation from his office. This Magistrate is not the King but the prime Minister. The people are the King. When we make him amenable to Justice however we should take care to provide some mode that will not make him dependent on the Legislature.

It was moved & 2^{ded} to postpone the question of impeachments which was negatived, Mas. & S. Carolina only being ay.

On y^e Question, Shall the Executive be removable on impeachments &c.?

Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

"Executive to receive fixed compensation." Agreed to nem. con.

"to be paid out of the national Treasury" agreed to, N. Jersey only in the negative.

M^r Gerry & Gov^r Morris moved that the Electors of the Executive shall not be members of the Nat^l Legislature, nor officers of the U. States, nor shall the Electors themselves be eligible to the supreme magistracy. Agreed to nem. con.

Doc^r McClurg[4] asked whether it would not be necessary, before a Committee for detailing the Constitution should be appointed, to determine on the means by which the Executive, is to carry the laws into effect, and to resist combinations ag^{st} them. Is he to have a military force for the purpose, or to have the command of the Militia, the only existing force that can be applied to that use? As the Resolutions now stand the Committee will have no determinate directions on this great point.

[4] "Mr. McClurg is a learned physician, but having never appeared before in public life his character as a politician is not sufficiently known. He attempted once or twice to speak, but with no great success. It is certain that he has a foundation of learning, on which, if he pleases, he may erect a character of high renown. The Doctor is about 38 years of age, a Gentleman of great respectability, and of a fair and unblemished character."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 332.

M^r Wilson thought that some additional directions to the Committee w^d be necessary.

M^r King. The Committee are to provide for the end. Their discretionary power to provide for the means is involved according to an established axiom.

Adjourned.

SATURDAY JULY 21 IN CONVENTION

M^r Williamson moved that the Electors of the Executive should be paid out of the National Treasury for the Service to be performed by them. Justice required this: as it was a national service they were to render. The motion was agreed to Nem. Con.

M^r Wilson moved as an amendment to Resol^n 10. that the supreme Nat^l Judiciary should be associated with the Executive in the Revisionary power. This proposition had been before made and failed: but he was so confirmed by reflection in the opinion of its utility, that he thought it incumbent on him to make another effort: The Judiciary ought to have an opportunity of remonstrating ag^{st} projected encroachments on the people as well as on themselves. It had been said that the Judges, as expositors of the Laws would have an opportunity of defending their constitutional rights. There was weight in this observation; but this power of the Judges did not go far enough. Laws may be unjust, may be unwise, may be dangerous, may be destructive; and yet may not be so unconstitutional as to justify the Judges in refusing to give them effect. Let them have a share in the Revisionary power, and they will have an opportunity of taking notice of these characters of a law, and of counteracting, by the weight of their opinions the improper views of the Legislature.--M^r Madison 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Ghorum did not see the advantage of employing the Judges in this way. As Judges they are not to be presumed to possess any peculiar knowledge of the mere policy of public measures. Nor can it be necessary as a security for their constitutional rights. The Judges in England have no such additional provision for their defence, yet their jurisdiction is not invaded. He thought it would be best to let the Executive alone be responsible, and at most to authorize him to call on Judges for their opinions.

M^r Elseworth approved heartily of the motion. The aid of the Judges will give more wisdom & firmness to the Executive. They will possess a systematic and accurate knowledge of the Laws, which the Executive cannot be expected always to possess. The Law of Nations also will frequently come into question. Of this the Judges alone will have competent information.

M^r Madison considered the object of the motion as of great importance to the meditated Constitution. It would be useful to the Judiciary departm^t by giving it an additional opportunity of defending itself ag^{st} Legislative encroachments: It would be useful to the Executive, by inspiring additional confidence & firmness in exerting the revisionary power: It would be useful to the Legislature by the valuable assistance it would give in preserving a consistency, conciseness, perspicuity & technical propriety in the laws, qualities peculiarly necessary; & yet shamefully wanting in our republican Codes. It would moreover be useful to the Community at large as an additional check ag^{st} a pursuit of those unwise & unjust measures which constituted so great a portion of our calamities. If any solid objection could be urged ag^{st} the motion, it must be on the supposition that it tended to give too much strength either to the Executive or Judiciary. He did not think there was the least ground for this apprehension. It was much more to be apprehended that notwithstanding this co-operation of the two departments, the Legislature would still be an overmatch for them. Experience in all the States had evinced a powerful tendency in the Legislature to absorb all power into its vortex. This was the real source of danger to the American Constitutions; & suggested the necessity of giving every defensive authority to the other departments that was consistent with Republican principles.

M^r Mason said he had always been a friend to this provision. It would give a confidence to the Executive, which he would not otherwise have, and without which the Revisionary power would be of little avail.

M^r Gerry did not expect to see this point which had undergone full discussion, again revived. The object he conceived of the Revisionary power was merely to secure the Executive department ag^{st} legislative encroachment. The Executive therefore who will best know and be ready to defend his rights ought alone to have the defence of them. The motion was liable to strong objections. It was combining & mixing together the Legislative & the other departments. It was establishing an improper coalition between the Executive & Judiciary departments. It was making statesmen of the Judges; and setting them up as the guardians of the Rights of the people. He relied for his part on the Representatives of the people as the guardians of their Rights & interests. It was making the Expositors of the Laws, the Legislators which ought never to be done. A better expedient for correcting the laws, would be to appoint as had been done in Pen^a, a person or persons of proper skill, to draw bills for the Legislature.

M^r Strong thought with M^r Gerry that the power of making ought to be kept distinct from that of expounding, the laws. No maxim was better established. The Judges in exercising the function of expositors might be influenced by the part they had taken in framing the laws.

M^r Gov^r Morris. Some check being necessary on the Legislature, the question is in what hands it should be lodged. On one side it was contended that the Executive alone ought to exercise it. He did not think that an Executive appointed for 6 years, and impeachable whilst in office w^d be a very effectual check. On the other side it was urged that he ought to be reinforced by the Judiciary department. Ag^{st} this it was objected that Expositors of laws ought to have no hand in making them, and arguments in favor of this had been drawn from England. What weight was due to them might be easily determined by an attention to facts. The truth was that the Judges in England had a great share in y^e Legislation. They are consulted in difficult & doubtful cases. They may be & some of them are members of the Legislature. They are or may be members of the privy Council, and can there advise the Executive as they will do with us if the motion succeeds. The influence the English Judges may have in the latter capacity in strengthening the Executive check can not be ascertained, as the King by his influence in a manner dictates the laws. There is one difference in the two cases however which disconcerts all reasoning from the British to our proposed Constitution. The British Executive has so great an interest in his prerogatives and such powerful means of defending them that he will never yield any part of them. The interest of our Executive is so inconsiderable & so transitory, and his means of defending it so feeble, that there is the justest ground to fear his want of firmness in resisting incroachments. He was extremely apprehensive that the auxiliary firmness & weight of the Judiciary would not supply the deficiency. He concurred in thinking the public liberty in greater danger from Legislative usurpations than from any other source. It had been said that the Legislature ought to be relied on as the proper Guardians of liberty. The answer was short and conclusive. Either bad laws will be pushed or not. On the latter supposition no check will be wanted. On the former a strong check will be necessary: and this is the proper supposition. Emissions of paper money, largesses to the people--a remission of debts and similar measures, will at some times be popular, and will be pushed for that reason. At other times such measures will coincide with the interests of the Legislature themselves, & that will be a reason not less cogent for pushing them. It may be thought that the people will not be deluded and misled in the latter case. But experience teaches another lesson. The press is indeed a great means of diminishing the evil, yet it is found to be unable to prevent it altogether.

M^r L. Martin, considered the association of the Judges with the Executive as a dangerous innovation; as well as one which could not produce the particular advantage expected from it. A knowledge of Mankind, and of Legislative affairs cannot be presumed to belong in a higher degree to the Judges than to the Legislature. And as to the Constitutionality of laws, that point will come before the Judges in their proper official character. In this character they have a negative on the laws. Join them with the Executive in the Revision and they will have a double negative. It is necessary that the Supreme Judiciary should have the confidence of the people. This will soon be lost, if they are employed in the task of remonstrating ag^{st} popular measures of the Legislature. Besides in what mode & proportion are they to vote in the Council of Revision?

M^r Madison could not discover in the proposed association of the Judges with the Executive in the Revisionary check on the Legislature any violation of the maxim which requires the great departments of power to be kept separate & distinct. On the contrary he thought it an auxiliary precaution in favor of the maxim. If a Constitutional discrimination of the departments on paper were a sufficient security to each ag^{st} encroachments of the others, all further provisions would indeed be superfluous. But experience had taught us a distrust of that security; and that it is necessary to introduce such a balance of powers and interests as will guarantee the provisions on paper. Instead therefore of contenting ourselves with laying down the Theory in the Constitution that each department ought to be separate & distinct, it was proposed to add a defensive power to each which should maintain the Theory in practice. In so doing we did not blend the departments together. We erected effectual barriers for keeping them separate. The most regular example of this theory was in the British Constitution. Yet it was not only the practice there to admit the Judges to a seat in the legislature, and in the Executive Councils, and to submit to their previous examination all laws of a certain description, but it was a part of their Constitution that the Executive might negative any law whatever; a part of their Constitution which had been universally regarded as calculated for the preservation of the whole. The objection ag^{st} a union of the Judiciary & Executive branches in the revision of the laws, had either no foundation or was not carried far enough. If such a Union was an improper mixture of powers, or such a Judiciary check on the laws, was inconsistent with the Theory of a free Constitution, it was equally so to admit the Executive to any participation in the making of laws; and the revisionary plan ought to be discarded altogether.

Col. Mason observed that the defence of the Executive was not the sole object of the Revisionary power. He expected even greater advantages from it. Notwithstanding the precautions taken in the Constitution of the Legislature, it would still so much resemble that of the individual States, that it must be expected frequently to pass unjust and pernicious laws. This restraining power was therefore essentially necessary. It would have the effect not only of hindering the final passage of such laws; but would discourage demagogues from attempting to get them passed. It has been said (by M^r L. Martin) that if the Judges were joined in this check on the laws, they would have a double negative, since in their expository capacity of Judges they would have one negative. He would reply that in this capacity they could impede in one case only, the operation of laws. They could declare an unconstitutional law void. But with regard to every law however unjust oppressive or pernicious, which did not come plainly under this description, they would be under the necessity as Judges to give it a free course. He wished the further use to be made of the Judges, of giving aid in preventing every improper law. Their aid will be the more valuable as they are in the habit and practice of considering laws in their true principles, and in all their consequences.

M^r Wilson. The separation of the departments does not require that they should have separate objects but that they should act separately tho' on the same objects. It is necessary that the two branches of the Legislature should be separate and distinct, yet they are both to act precisely on the same object.

M^r Gerry had rather give the Executive an absolute negative for its own defence than thus to blend together the Judiciary & Executive departments. It will bind them together in an offensive and defensive alliance ag^{st} the Legislature, and render the latter unwilling to enter into a contest with them.

M^r Gov^r Morris was surprised that any defensive provision for securing the effectual separation of the departments should be considered as an improper mixture of them. Suppose that the three powers, were to be vested in three persons, by compact among themselves; that one was to have the power of making, another of executing, and a third of judging, the laws. Would it not be very natural for the two latter after having settled the partition on paper, to observe, and would not candor oblige the former to admit, that as a security ag^{st} legislative acts of the former which might easily be so framed as to undermine the powers of the two others, the two others ought to be armed with a veto for their own defence, or at least to have an opportunity of stating their objections ag^{st} acts of encroachment? And would any one pretend that such a right tended to blend & confound powers that ought to be separately exercised? As well might it be said that If three neighbours had three distinct farms, a right in each to defend his farm ag^{st} his neighbours, tended to blend the farms together.

M^r Ghorum. All agree that a check on the Legislature is necessary. But there are two objections ag^{st} admitting the Judges to share in it which no observations on the other side seem to obviate, the 1^{st} is that the Judges ought to carry into the exposition of the laws no prepossessions with regard to them. 2^d that as the Judges will outnumber the Executive, the revisionary check would be thrown entirely out of the Executive hands, and instead of enabling him to defend himself, would enable the Judges to sacrifice him.

M^r Wilson. The proposition is certainly not liable to all the objections which have been urged ag^{st} it. According (to M^r Gerry) it will unite the Executive & Judiciary in an offensive & defensive alliance ag^{st} the Legislature. According to M^r Ghorum it will lead to a subversion of the Executive by the Judiciary influence. To the first gentleman the answer was obvious: that the joint weight of the two departments was necessary to balance the single weight of the Legislature. To the 1^{st} objection stated by the other Gentleman it might be answered that supposing the prepossession to mix itself with the exposition, the evil would be overbalanced by the advantages promised by the expedient. To the 2^d objection, that such a rule of voting might be provided in the detail as would guard ag^{st} it.

M^r Rutlidge thought the Judges of all men the most unfit to be concerned in the revisionary Council. The Judges ought never to give their opinion on a law till it comes before them. He thought it equally unnecessary. The Executive could advise with the officers of State, as of war, finance &c. and avail himself of their information & opinions.

On Question on M^r Wilson's motion for joining the Judiciary in the Revision of laws it passed in the negative--

Mass. no. Con^t ay. N. J. not present. P^a div^d. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. div^d.

Resol. 10, giving the Ex a qualified veto, without the amend^t was then ag^d to nem. con.

The motion made by M^r Madison July 18. & then postponed, "that the Judges sh^d be nominated by the Executive & such nominations become appointments unless disagreed to by 2/3 of the 2^d branch of the Legislature," was now resumed.

M^r Madison stated as his reasons for the motion, 1. that it secured the responsibility of the Executive who would in general be more capable & likely to select fit characters than the Legislature, or even the 2^d b. of it, who might hide their selfish motives under the number concerned in the appointment. 2. that in case of any flagrant partiality or error, in the nomination it might be fairly presumed that 2/3 of the 2^d branch would join in putting a negative on it. 3. that as the 2^d b. was very differently constituted when the appointment of the Judges was formerly referred to it, and was now to be composed of equal votes from all the States, the principle of compromise which had prevailed in other instances required in this that there sh^d be a concurrence of two authorities, in one of which the people, in the other the States should be represented. The Executive Magistrate w^d be considered as a national officer, acting for and equally sympathizing with every part of the U. States. If the 2^d branch alone should have this power, the Judges might be appointed by a minority of the people, tho' by a majority, of the States, which could not be justified on any principle as their proceedings were to relate to the people, rather than to the States: and as it would moreover throw the appointments entirely into the hands of y^e Northern States, a perpetual ground of jealousy & discontent would be furnished to the Southern States.

M^r Pinkney was for placing the appointm^t in the 2^d b. exclusively. The Executive will possess neither the requisite knowledge of characters, nor confidence of the people for so high a trust.

M^r Randolph w^d have preferred the mode of appointm^t proposed formerly by M^r Ghorum, as adopted in the Constitution of Mass^{ts} but thought the motion depending so great an improvement of the clause as it stands, that he anxiously wished it success. He laid great stress on the responsibility of the Executive as a security for fit appointments. Appointments by the Legislatures have generally resulted from cabal, from personal regard, or some other consideration than a title derived from the proper qualifications. The same inconveniences will proportionally prevail if the appointments be referred to either branch of the Legislature or to any other authority administered by a number of individuals.

M^r Elseworth would prefer a negative in the Executive on a nomination by the 2^d branch, the negative to be overruled by a concurrence of 2/3 of the 2^d b. to the mode proposed by the motion; but preferred an absolute appointment by the 2^d branch to either. The Executive will be regarded by the people with a jealous eye. Every power for augmenting unnecessarily his influence will be disliked. As he will be stationary it was not to be supposed he could have a better knowledge of characters. He will be more open to caresses & intrigues than the Senate. The right to supersede his nomination will be ideal only. A nomination under such circumstances will be equivalent to an appointment.

M^r Gov^r Morris supported the motion. 1. The States in their corporate capacity will frequently have an interest staked on the determination of the Judges. As in the Senate the States are to vote the Judges ought not to be appointed by the Senate. Next to the impropriety of being Judge in one's own cause, is the appointment of the Judge. 2. It had been said the Executive would be uninformed of characters. The reverse was y^e truth. The Senate will be so. They must take the character of candidates from the flattering pictures drawn by their friends. The Executive in the necessary intercourse with every part of the U. S. required by the nature of his administration, will or may have the best possible information. 3. It had been said that a jealousy would be entertained of the Executive. If the Executive can be safely trusted with the command of the army, there cannot surely be any reasonable ground of Jealousy in the present case. He added that if the Objections ag^{st} an appointment of the Executive by the Legislature, had the weight that had been allowed there must be some weight in the objection to an appointment of the Judges by the Legislature or by any part of it.

M^r Gerry. The appointment of the Judges like every other part of the Constitution sh^d be so modelled as to give satisfaction both to the people and to the States. The mode under consideration will give satisfaction to neither. He could not conceive that the Executive could be as well informed of characters throughout the Union, as the Senate. It appeared to him also a strong objection that 2/3 of the Senate were required to reject a nomination of the Executive. The Senate would be constituted in the same manner as Congress. And the appointments of Congress have been generally good.

M^r Madison, observed that he was not anxious that 2/3 should be necessary to disagree to a nomination. He had given this form to his motion chiefly to vary it the more clearly from one which had just been rejected. He was content to obviate the objection last made, and accordingly so varied the motion as to let a majority reject.

Col. Mason found it his duty to differ from his colleagues in their opinions & reasonings on this subject. Notwithstanding the form of the proposition by which the appointment seemed to be divided between the Executive & Senate, the appointment was Substantially vested in the former alone. The false complaisance which usually prevails in such cases will prevent a disagreement to the first nominations. He considered the appointment by the Executive as a dangerous prerogative. It might even give him an influence over the Judiciary department itself. He did not think the difference of interest between the Northern and Southern States could be properly brought into this argument. It would operate & require some precautions in the case of regulating navigation, commerce & imposts; but he could not see that it had any connection with the Judiciary department.

On the question, the motion now being "that the executive should nominate & such nominations should become appointments unless disagreed to by the Senate"

Mass. ay. C^t no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On question for agreeing to the clause as it stands by which the Judges are to be appointed by the 2^d branch

Mass. no. C^t ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Adjourned.

MONDAY JULY 23. IN CONVENTION

M^r John Langdon & M^r Nicholas Gilman[5] from N. Hampshire,[6] took their seats.

[5] M^r Gilman is modest, genteel, and sensible. There is nothing brilliant or striking in his character, but there is something respectable and worthy in the man.--About 30 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 325.

He did not speak in the convention.

[6] The act appointing deputies to the convention was not passed by the New Hampshire Legislature till June 27, 1787.--Journal of Federal Convention, 17.

Resol:^n 17. that provision ought to be made for future amendments of the Articles of Union, agreed to, nem. con.

Resol^n 18. "requiring the Legis: Execut: & Jud^y of the States to be bound by oath to support the articles of Union," taken into consideration.

M^r Williamson suggests that a reciprocal oath should be required from the National officers, to support the Governments of the States.

M^r Gerry moved to insert as an amendm^t that the oath of the officers of the National Government also should extend to the support of the Nat^l Gov^t which was agreed to nem. con.

M^r Wilson said he was never fond of oaths, considering them as a left handed security only. A good Gov^t did not need them, and a bad one could not or ought not to be supported. He was afraid they might too much trammel the members of the existing Gov^t in case future alterations should be necessary; and prove an obstacle to Resol: 17. just ag^d to.

M^r Ghorum did not know that oaths would be of much use; but could see no inconsistency between them and the 17. Resol. or any regular amend^t of the Constitution. The oath could only require fidelity to the existing Constitution. A constitutional alteration of the Constitution, could never be regarded as a breach of the Constitution, or of any oath to support it.

M^r Gerry thought with M^r Ghorum there could be no shadow of inconsistency in the case. Nor could he see any other harm that could result from the Resolution. On the other side he thought one good effect would be produced by it. Hitherto the officers of the two Governments had considered them as distinct from, and not as parts of the General System, & had in all cases of interference given a preference to the State Gov^{ts}. The proposed oath will cure that error.

The Resol^n (18) was agreed to nem. con.

Resol: 19. referring the new Constitution to Assemblies to be chosen by the people for the express purpose of ratifying it was next taken into consideration.

M^r Elseworth moved that it be referred to the Legislatures of the States for ratification. M^r Patterson 2^{ded} the motion.

Col. Mason considered a reference of the plan to the authority of the people as one of the most important and essential of the Resolutions. The Legislatures have no power to ratify it. They are the mere creatures of the State Constitutions, and cannot be greater than their creators. And he knew of no power in any of the Constitutions, he knew there was no power in some of them, that could be competent to this object. Whither then must we resort? To the people with whom all power remains that has not been given up in the Constitutions derived from them. It was of great moment he observed that this doctrine should be cherished as the basis of free Government. Another strong reason was that admitting the Legislatures to have a competent authority, it would be wrong to refer the plan to them, because succeeding Legislatures having equal authority could undo the acts of their predecessors; and the National Gov^t would stand in each State on the weak and tottering foundation of an Act of Assembly. There was a remaining consideration of some weight. In some of the States the Gov^{ts} were not derived from the clear & undisputed authority of the people. This was the case in Virginia. Some of the best & wisest citizens considered the Constitution as established by an assumed authority. A national Constitution derived from such a source would be exposed to the severest criticisms.

M^r Randolph. One idea has pervaded all our proceedings, to wit, that opposition as well from the States as from individuals, will be made to the System to be proposed. Will it not then be highly imprudent, to furnish any unnecessary pretext by the mode of ratifying it. Added to other objections ag^{st} a ratification by the Legislative authority only, it may be remarked that there have been instances in which the authority of the Common law has been set up in particular States ag^{st} that of the Confederation which has had no higher sanction than Legislative ratification.--Whose opposition will be most likely to be excited ag^{st} the System? That of the local demagogues who will be degraded by it from the importance they now hold. These will spare no efforts to impede that progress in the popular mind which will be necessary to the adoption of the plan, and which every member will find to have taken place in his own, if he will compare his present opinions with those brought with him into the Convention. It is of great importance therefore that the consideration of this subject should be transferred from the Legislatures where this class of men, have their full influence to a field in which their efforts can be less mischievous. It is moreover worthy of consideration that some of the States are averse to any change in their Constitution, and will not take the requisite steps, unless expressly called upon to refer the question to the people.

M^r Gerry. The arguments of Col. Mason & M^r Randolph prove too much. They prove an unconstitutionality in the present federal system & even in some of the State Gov^{ts}. Inferences drawn from such a source must be inadmissible. Both the State Gov^{ts} & the federal Gov^t have been too long acquiesced in, to be now shaken. He considered the Confederation to be paramount to any State Constitution. The last article of it authorizing alterations must consequently be so as well as the others, and every thing done in pursuance of the article must have the same high authority with the article. Great confusion he was confident would result from a recurrence to the people. They would never agree on any thing. He could not see any ground to suppose that the people will do what their rulers will not. The rulers will either conform to, or influence the sense of the people.

M^r Ghorum was ag^{st} referring the plan to the Legislatures. 1. Men chosen by the people for the particular purpose, will discuss the subject more candidly than members of the Legislature who are to lose the power which is to be given up to the Gen^l Gov^t. 2. Some of the Legislatures are composed of several branches. It will consequently be more difficult in these cases to get the plan through the Legislatures, than thro' a Convention. 3. in the States many of the ablest men are excluded from the Legislatures, but may be elected into a convention. Among these may be ranked many of the Clergy who are generally friends to good Government. Their services were found to be valuable in the formation & establishment of the Constitution of Massach^{ts}. 4. the Legislatures will be interrupted with a variety of little business, by artfully pressing which designing men will find means to delay from year to year, if not to frustrate altogether the national system. 5. If the last art: of the Confederation is to be pursued the unanimous concurrence of the States will be necessary. But will any one say, that all the States are to suffer themselves to be ruined, if Rho. Island should persist in her opposition to general measures. Some other States might also tread in her steps. The present advantage which N. York seems to be so much attached to, of taxing her neighbours by the regulation of her trade, makes it very probable, that she will be of the number. It would therefore deserve serious consideration whether provision ought not to be made for giving effect to the System without waiting for the unanimous concurrence of the States.

M^r Elseworth. If there be any Legislatures who should find themselves incompetent to the ratification, he should be content to let them advise with their constituents and pursue such a mode as w^d be competent. He thought more was to be expected from the Legislatures than from the people. The prevailing wish of the people in the Eastern States is to get rid of the public debt; and the idea of strengthening the Nat^l Gov^t carries with it that of strengthening the public debt. It was said by Col. Mason 1. that the Legislatures have no authority in this case. 2. that their successors having equal authority could rescind their acts. As to the 2^d point he could not admit it to be well founded. An Act to which the States by their Legislatures, make themselves parties, becomes a compact from which no one of the parties can recede of itself. As to the 1^{st} point, he observed that a new sett of ideas seemed to have crept in since the articles of Confederation were established. Conventions of the people, or with power derived expressly from the people, were not then thought of. The Legislatures were considered as competent. Their ratification has been acquiesced in without complaint. To whom have Cong^s applied on subsequent occasions for further powers? To the Legislatures; not to the people. The fact is that we exist at present, and we need not enquire how, as a federal Society, united by a charter one article of which is that alterations therein may be made by the Legislative authority of the States. It has been said that if the confederation is to be observed, the States must unanimously concur in the proposed innovations. He would answer that if such were the urgency & necessity of our situation as to warrant a new compact among a part of the States, founded on the consent of the people; the same pleas would be equally valid in favor of a partial compact, founded on the consent of the Legislatures.

M^r Williamson thought the Resol:^n (19) so expressed as that it might be submitted either to the Legislatures or to Conventions recommended by the Legislatures. He observed that some Legislatures were evidently unauthorized to ratify the system. He thought too that Conventions were to be preferred as more likely to be composed of the ablest men in the States.

M^r Gov^r Morris considered the inference of M^r Elseworth from the plea of necessity as applied to the establishment of a new System on y^e consent of the people of a part of the States, in favor of a like establishm^t on the consent of a part of the Legislatures, as a non sequitur. If the Confederation is to be pursued no alteration can be made without the unanimous consent of the Legislatures: Legislative alterations not conformable to the federal compact, would clearly not be valid. The Judges would consider them as null & void. Whereas in case of an appeal to the people of the U. S., the supreme authority, the federal compact may be altered by a majority of them; in like manner as the Constitution of a particular State may be altered by a majority of the people of the State. The amendm^t moved by M^r Elseworth erroneously supposes that we are proceeding on the basis of the Confederation. This Convention is unknown to the Confederation.

M^r King thought with M^r Elseworth that the Legislatures had a competent authority, the acquiescence of the people of America in the Confederation, being equivalent to a formal ratification by the people. He thought with M^r E. also that the plea of necessity was as valid in the one case as the other. At the same time he preferred a reference to the authority of the people expressly delegated to Conventions, as the most certain means of obviating all disputes & doubts concerning the legitimacy of the new Constitution; as well as the most likely means of drawing forth the best men in the States to decide on it. He remarked that among other objections made in the State of N. York to granting powers to Cong^s one had been that such powers as would operate within the State, could not be reconciled to the Constitution; and therefore were not grantible by the Legislative authority. He considered it as of some consequence also to get rid of the scruples which some members of the State Legislatures might derive from their oaths to support & maintain the existing Constitutions.

M^r Madison thought it clear that the Legislatures were incompetent to the proposed changes. These changes would make essential inroads on the State Constitutions, and it would be a novel & dangerous doctrine that a Legislature could change the constitution under which it held its existence. There might indeed be some Constitutions within the Union, which had given a power to the Legislature to concur in alterations of the federal Compact. But there were certainly some which had not; and in the case of these, a ratification must of necessity be obtained from the people. He considered the difference between a system founded on the Legislatures only, and one founded on the people, to be the true difference between a league or treaty, and a Constitution. The former in point of moral obligation might be as inviolable as the latter. In point of political operation, there were two important distinctions in favor of the latter. 1. A law violating a treaty ratified by a pre-existing law, might be respected by the Judges as a law, though an unwise or perfidious one. A law violating a constitution established by the people themselves, would be considered by the Judges as null & void. 2. The doctrine laid down by the law of Nations in the case of treaties is that a breach of any one article by any of the parties, frees the other parties from their engagements. In the case of a union of people under one Constitution, the nature of the pact has always been understood to exclude such an interpretation. Comparing the two modes in point of expediency he thought all the considerations which recommended this Convention in preference to Congress for proposing the reform were in favor of State Conventions in preference to the Legislatures for examining and adopting it.

On question on M^r Elseworth's motion to refer the plan to the Legislatures of the States

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved that the reference of the plan be made to one general Convention, chosen & authorized by the people to consider, amend, & establish the same.--Not seconded.

On question for agreeing to Resolution 19. touching the mode of Ratification as reported from the Committee of the Whole; viz, to refer the Const^n, after the approbation of Cong^s to assemblies chosen by the people;

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r King moved that the representation in the second branch consist of ---- members from each State, who shall vote per capita.

M^r Elseworth said he had always approved of voting in that mode.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to fill the blank with three. He wished the Senate to be a pretty numerous body. If two members only should be allowed to each State, and a majority be made a quorum, the power would be lodged in 14 members, which was too small a number for such a trust.

M^r Ghorum preferred two to three members for the blank. A small number was most convenient for deciding on peace & war &c. which he expected would be vested in the 2^d branch. The number of States will also increase. Kentucky, Vermont, the Province of Mayne & Franklin will probably soon be added to the present number. He presumed also that some of the largest States would be divided. The strength of the General Gov^t will lie not in the largeness, but in the smallness of the States.

Col. Mason thought 3 from each State including new States would make the 2^d branch too numerous. Besides other objections, the additional expence ought always to form one, where it was not absolutely necessary.

M^r Williamson. If the number be too great, the distant States will not be on an equal footing with the nearer States. The latter can more easily send & support their ablest Citizens. He approved of the voting per capita.

On the question for filling the blank with "three"

N. H. no. Mass. no. Con^t no. P^a ay. Del. no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On question for filling it with "two." Agreed to nem. con.

M^r L Martin was opposed to voting per Capita, as departing from the idea of the States being represented in the 2^d branch.

M^r Carroll,[7] was not struck with any particular objection ag^{st} the mode; but he did not wish so hastily to make so material an innovation.

[7] "Mr. Carrol is a Man of large fortune, and influence in his State. He possesses plain good sense, and is in the full confidence of his Countrymen. This Gentleman is about [blank] years of age."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 330.

On the question on the whole motion viz. the 2^d b. to consist of 2 members from each State and to vote per Capita,

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Houston[8] & M^r Spaight moved "that the appointment of the Executive by Electors chosen by the Legislatures of the States, be reconsidered." M^r Houston urged the extreme inconveniency & the considerable expence, of drawing together men from all the States for the single purpose of electing the Chief Magistrate.

[8] "Mr. Houston is an Attorney at Law, and has been Member of Congress for the State of Georgia. He is a Gentleman of Family, and was educated in England. As to his legal or political knowledge he has very little to boast of. Nature seems to have done more for his corporeal than mental powers. His Person is striking, but his mind very little improved with useful or elegant knowledge. He has none of the talents requisite for the Orator, but in public debate is confused and irregular. Mr. Houston is about 30 years of age of an amiable and sweet temper, and of good and honorable principles."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 334.

On the question which was put without any debate

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. Ct. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. Virg^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Ordered that tomorrow be assigned for the reconsideration, Con^t & Pen^a no--all the rest ay.

M^r Gerry moved that the proceedings of the Convention for the establishment of a Nat^l Gov^t (except the part relating to the Executive), be referred to a Committee to prepare & report a Constitution conformable thereto.

Gen^l Pinkney reminded the Convention that if the Committee should fail to insert some security to the Southern States ag^{st} an emancipation of slaves, and taxes on exports, he sh^d be bound by duty to his State to vote ag^{st} their Report. The app^t of a Com^e as moved by M^r Gerry. Ag^d to nem. con.

Shall the Com^e consist of 10 members one from each State pres^t--All the States were no, except Delaware, ay.

Shall it consist of 7. members

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

The question being lost by an equal division of Votes.

It was agreed, nem-con- that the Committee consist of 5 members to be appointed tomorrow.

Adjourned.

TUESDAY JULY 24. IN CONVENTION

The appointment of the Executive by Electors reconsidered.

M^r Houston moved that he be appointed by the "Nat^l Legislature," instead of "Electors appointed by the State Legislatures" according to the last decision of the mode. He dwelt chiefly on the improbability, that capable men would undertake the service of Electors from the more distant States.

M^r Spaight seconded the motion.

M^r Gerry opposed it. He thought there was no ground to apprehend the danger urged by M^r Houston. The election of the Executive Magistrate will be considered as of vast importance and will create great earnestness. The best men, the Governours of the States will not hold it derogatory from their character to be the electors. If the motion should be agreed to, it will be necessary to make the Executive ineligible a 2^d time, in order to render him independent of the Legislature; which was an idea extremely repugnant to his way of thinking.

M^r Strong supposed that there would be no necessity, if the Executive should be appointed by the Legislature, to make him ineligible a 2^d time; as new elections of the Legislature will have intervened; and he will not depend for his 2^d appointment on the same sett of men as his first was rec^d from. It had been suggested that gratitude for his past appointment w^d produce the same effect as dependence for his future appointment. He thought very differently. Besides this objection would lie ag^{st} the Electors who would be objects of gratitude as well as the Legislature. It was of great importance not to make the Gov^t too complex which would be the case if a new sett of men like the Electors should be introduced into it. He thought also that the first characters in the States would not feel sufficient motives to undertake the office of Electors.

M^r Williamson was for going back to the original ground; to elect the Executive for 7 years and render him ineligible a 2^d time. The proposed Electors would certainly not be men of the 1^{st} nor even of the 2^d grade in the States. These would all prefer a seat either in the Senate or the other branch of the Legislature. He did not like the Unity in the Executive. He had wished the Executive power to be lodged in three men taken from three districts into which the States should be divided. As the Executive is to have a kind of veto on the laws, and there is an essential difference of interests between the N. & S. States, particularly in the carrying trade, the power will be dangerous, if the Executive is to be taken from part of the Union, to the part from which he is not taken. The case is different here from what it is in England; where there is a sameness of interests throughout the Kingdom. Another objection ag^{st} a single Magistrate is that he will be an elective King, and will feel the spirit of one. He will spare no pains to keep himself in for life, and will then lay a train for the succession of his children. It was pretty certain he thought that we should at some time or other have a King; but he wished no precaution to be omitted that might postpone the event as long as possible.--Ineligibility a 2^d time appeared to him to be the best precaution. With this precaution he had no objection to a longer term than 7 years. He would go as far as 10 or 12 years.

M^r Gerry moved that the Legislatures of the States should vote by ballot for the Executive in the same proportions as it had been proposed they should chuse electors; and that in case a majority of the votes should not centre on the same person, the 1^{st} branch of the Nat^l Legislature should chuse two out of the 4 candidates having most votes, and out of these two, the 2^d branch should chuse the Executive.

M^r King seconded the motion--and on the Question to postpone in order to take it into consideration. The noes were so predominant, that the States were not counted.

Question on M^r Houston's motion that the Executive be app^d by the Na^l Legislature.

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r L. Martin & M^r Gerry moved to re-instate the ineligibility of the Executive a 2^d time.

M^r Elseworth. With many this appears a natural consequence of his being elected by the Legislature. It was not the case with him. The Executive he thought should be reelected if his conduct proved him worthy of it. And he will be more likely to render himself, worthy of it if he be rewardable with it. The most eminent characters also, will be more willing to accept the trust under this condition, than if they foresee a necessary degradation at a fixt period.

M^r Gerry. That the Executive sh^d be independent of the Legislature is a clear point. The longer the duration of his appointment the more will his dependence be diminished. It will be better then for him to continue 10. 15. or even 20. years and be ineligible afterwards.

M^r King was for making him re-eligible. This is too great an advantage to be given up for the small effect it will have on his dependence, if impeachments are to lie. He considered these as rendering the tenure during pleasure.

M^r L. Martin, suspending his motion as to the ineligibility, moved "that the appointm^t of the Executive shall continue for Eleven years.

M^r Gerry suggested fifteen years.

M^r King twenty years. This is the medium life of princes.[9]

[9] This might possibly be meant as a carricature of the previous motions in order to defeat the object of them.--Madison's Note.

M^r Davie eight years.

M^r Wilson. The difficulties & perplexities into which the House is thrown proceed from the election by the Legislature which he was sorry had been reinstated. The inconveniency of this mode was such that he would agree to almost any length of time in order to get rid of the dependence which must result from it. He was persuaded that the longest term would not be equivalent to a proper mode of election, unless indeed it should be during good behaviour. It seemed to be supposed that at a certain advance of life, a continuance in office would cease to be agreeable to the officer, as well as desirable to the public. Experience had shewn in a variety of instances that both a capacity & inclination for public service existed in very advanced stages. He mentioned the instance of a Doge of Venice who was elected after he was 80 years of age. The Popes have generally been elected at very advanced periods, and yet in no case had a more steady or a better concerted policy been pursued than in the Court of Rome. If the Executive should come into office at 35 years of age, which he presumes may happen & his continuance should be fixt at 15 years, at the age of 50. in the very prime of life, and with all the aid of experience, he must be cast aside like a useless hulk. What an irreparable loss would the British Jurisprudence have sustained, had the age of 50. been fixt there as the ultimate limit of capacity or readiness to serve the public. The great luminary (L^d Mansfield) held his seat for thirty years after his arrival at that age. Notwithstanding what had been done he could not but hope that a better mode of election would yet be adopted; and one that would be more agreeable to the general sense of the House. That time might be given for further deliberation he w^d move that the present question be postponed till tomorrow.

M^r Broom seconded the motion to postpone.

M^r Gerry. We seem to be entirely at a loss on this head. He would suggest whether it would not be advisable to refer the clause relating to the Executive to the Committee of detail to be appointed. Perhaps they will be able to hit on something that may unite the various opinions which have been thrown out.

M^r Wilson. As the great difficulty seems to spring from the mode of election, he w^d suggest a mode which had not been mentioned. It was that the Executive be elected for 6 years by a small number, not more than 15 of the Nat^l Legislature, to be drawn from it, not by ballot, but by lot and who should retire immediately and make the election without separating. By this mode intrigue would be avoided in the first instance, and the dependence would be diminished. This was not he said a digested idea and might be liable to strong objections.

M^r Gov^r Morris. Of all possible modes of appointment that by the Legislature is the worst. If the Legislature is to appoint, and to impeach or to influence the impeachment, the Executive will be the mere creature of it. He had been opposed to the impeachment but was now convinced that impeachments must be provided for, if the app^t was to be of any duration. No man w^d say, that an Executive known to be in the pay of an Enemy, should not be removable in some way or other. He had been charged heretofore (by Col. Mason) with inconsistency in pleading for confidence in the Legislature on some occasions, & urging a distrust on others. The charge was not well founded. The Legislature is worthy of unbounded confidence in some respects, and liable to equal distrust in others. When their interest coincides precisely with that of their Constituents, as happens in many of their Acts, no abuse of trust is to be apprehended. When a strong personal interest happens to be opposed to the general interest, the Legislature cannot be too much distrusted. In all public bodies there are two parties. The Executive will necessarily be more connected with one than with the other. There will be a personal interest therefore in one of the parties to oppose as well as in the other to support him. Much had been said of the intrigues, that will be practised by the Executive to get into office. Nothing had been said on the other side of the intrigues to get him out of office. Some leader of a party will always covet his seat, will perplex his administration, will cabal with the Legislature, till he succeeds in supplanting him. This was the way in which the King of England was got out, he meant the real King, the Minister. This was the way in which Pitt (L^d Chatham) forced himself into place. Fox was for pushing the matter still farther. If he had carried his India bill, which he was very near doing, he would have made the Minister, the King in form almost as well as in substance. Our President will be the British Minister, yet we are about to make him appointable by the Legislature. Something had been said of the danger of Monarchy. If a good government should not now be formed, if a good organization of the Executive should not be provided, he doubted whether we should not have something worse than a limited monarchy. In order to get rid of the dependence of the Executive on the Legislature, the expedient of making him ineligible a 2^d time had been devised. This was as much as to say we sh^d give him the benefit of experience, and then deprive ourselves of the use of it. But make him ineligible a 2^d time--and prolong his duration even to 15 years, will he by any wonderful interposition of providence at that period cease to be a man? No he will be unwilling to quit his exaltation, the road to his object thro' the Constitution will be shut; he will be in possession of the sword, a civil war will ensue, and the Co[~m]ander of the victorious army on which ever side, will be the despot of America. This consideration renders him particularly anxious that the Executive should be properly constituted. The vice here would not, as in some other parts of the system be curable. It is the most difficult of all rightly to balance the Executive. Make him too weak: The Legislature will usurp his powers. Make him too strong. He will usurp on the Legislature. He preferred a short period, a re-eligibility, but a different mode of election. A long period would prevent an adoption of the plan: it ought to do so. He sh^d himself be afraid to trust it. He was not prepared to decide on M^r Wilson's mode of election just hinted by him. He thought it deserved consideration. It would be better that chance sh^d decide than intrigue.

On a question to postpone the consideration of the Resolution on the subject of the Executive

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. div^d. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Wilson then moved that the Executive be chosen every ---- years by ---- Electors to be taken by lot from the Nat^t Legislature who shall proceed immediately to the choice of the Executive and not separate until it be made."

M^r Carrol 2^{ds} the motion.

M^r Gerry. This is committing too much to chance. If the lot should fall on a sett of unworthy men, an unworthy Executive must be saddled on the Country. He thought it had been demonstrated that no possible mode of electing by the Legislature could be a good one.

M^r King. The lot might fall on a majority from the same State which w^d ensure the election of a man from that State. We ought to be governed by reason, not by chance. As nobody seemed to be satisfied, he wished the matter to be postponed.

M^r Wilson did not move this as the best mode. His opinion remained unshaken that we ought to resort to the people for the election. He seconded the postponement.

M^r Gov^r Morris observed that the chances were almost infinite ag^{st} a majority of Electors from the same State.

On a question whether the last motion was in order, it was determined in the affirmative: 7 ays. 4 noes.

On the question of postponem^t it was agreed to nem. con.

M^r Carrol took occasion to observe that he considered the clause declaring that direct taxation on the States should be in proportion to representation, previous to the obtaining an actual census, as very objectionable, and that he reserved to himself the right of opposing it, if the Report of the Committee of detail should leave it in the plan.

M^r Gov^r Morris hoped the Committee would strike out the whole of the clause proportioning direct taxation to representation. He had only meant it as a bridge[10] to assist us over a certain gulph; having passed the gulph the bridge may be removed. He thought the principle laid down with so much strictness, liable to strong objections.

Fac-Simile. Facing Page (part 2)

[10] The object was to lessen the eagerness on one side, & the opposition on the other, to the share of representation claimed by the S. States on account of the Negroes.--Madison's Note.

On a ballot for a Committee to report a Constitution conformable to the Resolutions passed by the Convention, the members chosen were

M^r Rutlidge, M^r Randolph, M^r Ghorum, M^r Elseworth, M^r Wilson--

On motion to discharge the Com^e of the whole from the propositions submitted to the Convention by M^r C. Pinkney as the basis of a constitution, and to refer them to the Committee of detail just appointed, it was ag^d to nem: con.

A like motion was then made & agreed to nem: con: with respect to the propositions of M^r Patterson.

Adjourned.

WEDNESDAY JULY 25. IN CONVENTION

Clause relating to the Executive being again under consideration[11]

[11] "Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise & seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born citizen."--John Jay to Washington, July 25, 1787 (Wash. MSS.).

M^r Elseworth moved "that the Executive be appointed by the Legislature," except when the magistrate last chosen shall have continued in office the whole term for which he was chosen, & be reeligible, in which case the choice shall be by Electors appointed by the Legislatures of the States for that purpose. By this means a deserving magistrate may be reelected without making him dependent on the Legislature.

M^r Gerry repeated his remark that an election at all by the Nat^l Legislature was radically and incurably wrong; and moved that the Executive be appointed by the Governours & Presidents of the States, with advice of their Councils, and where there are no Councils by Electors chosen by the Legislatures. The executives to vote in the following proportions: viz--

M^r Madison. There are objections ag^{st} every mode that has been, or perhaps can be proposed. The election must be made either by some existing authority under the Nat^l or State Constitutions--or by some special authority derived from the people--or by the people themselves.--The two Existing authorities under the Nat^l Constitution w^d be the Legislative & Judiciary. The latter he presumed was out of the question. The former was in his Judgment liable to insuperable objections. Besides the general influence of that mode on the independence of the Executive, 1. the election of the Chief Magistrate would agitate & divide the legislature so much that the public interest would materially suffer by it. Public bodies are always apt to be thrown into contentions, but into more violent ones by such occasions than by any others. 2. the candidate would intrigue with the Legislature, would derive his appointment from the predominant faction, and be apt to render his administration subservient to its views. 3. The Ministers of foreign powers would have and would make use of, the opportunity to mix their intrigues & influence with the Election. Limited as the powers of the Executive are, it will be an object of great moment with the great rival powers of Europe who have American possessions, to have at the head of our Governm^t a man attached to their respective politics & interests. No pains, nor perhaps expence, will be spared, to gain from the Legislature an appointm^t favorable to their wishes. Germany & Poland are witnesses of this danger. In the former, the election of the Head of the Empire, till it became in a manner hereditary, interested all Europe, and was much influenced by foreign interference. In the latter, altho' the elective Magistrate has very little real power, his election has at all times produced the most eager interference of foreign princes, and has in fact at length slid entirely into foreign hands. The existing authorities in the States are the Legislative, Executive & Judiciary. The appointment of the Nat^l Executive by the first was objectionable in many points of view, some of which had been already mentioned. He would mention one which of itself would decide his opinion. The Legislatures of the States had betrayed a strong propensity to a variety of pernicious measures. One object of the Nat^l Legisl^{re} was to controul this propensity. One object of the Nat^l Executive, so far as it would have a negative on the laws, was to controul the Nat^l Legislature so far as it might be infected with a similar propensity. Refer the appointm^t of the Nat^l Executive to the State Legislatures, and this controuling purpose may be defeated. The Legislatures can & will act with some kind of regular plan, and will promote the appointm^t of a man who will not oppose himself to a favorite object. Should a majority of the Legislatures at the time of election have the same object, or different objects of the same kind, The Nat^l Executive would be rendered subservient to them.--An appointment by the State Executives, was liable among other objections to this insuperable one, that being standing bodies, they could & would be courted, and intrigued with by the Candidates, by their partizans, and by the Ministers of foreign powers. The State Judiciary had not & he presumed w^d not be proposed as a proper source of appointment. The option before us then lay between an appointment by Electors chosen by the people--and an immediate appointment by the people. He thought the former mode free from many of the objections which had been urged ag^{st} it, and greatly preferable to an appointment by the Nat^l Legislature. As the electors would be chosen for the occasion, would meet at once, & proceed immediately to an appointment, there would be very little opportunity for cabal, or corruption. As a further precaution, it might be required that they should meet at some place, distinct from the seat of Gov^t and even that no person within a certain distance of the place at the time sh^d be eligible. This Mode however had been rejected so recently & by so great a majority that it probably would not be proposed anew. The remaining mode was an election by the people or rather by the qualified part of them, at large: With all its imperfections he liked this best. He would not repeat either the general argum^{ts}. for or the objections ag^{st} this mode. He would only take notice of two difficulties which he admitted to have weight. The first arose from the disposition in the people to prefer a Citizen of their own State, and the disadvantage this w^d throw on the smaller States. Great as this objection might be he did not think it equal to such as lay ag^{st} every other mode which had been proposed. He thought too that some expedient might be hit upon that would obviate it. The second difficulty arose from the disproportion of qualified voters in the N. & S. States, and the disadvantages which this mode would throw on the latter. The answer to this objection was 1. that this disproportion would be continually decreasing under the influence of the Republican laws introduced in the S. States, and the more rapid increase of their population. 2. That local considerations must give way to the general interest. As an individual from the S. States, he was willing to make the sacrifice.

M^r Elseworth. The objection drawn from the different sizes of the States, is unanswerable. The Citizens of the largest States would invariably prefer the candidate within the State; and the largest States w^d invariably have the man.

Question on M^r Elseworth's motion as above.

N. H. ay. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Pinkney moved that the election by the Legislature be qualified with a proviso that no person be eligible for more than 6 years in any twelve years. He thought this would have all the advantage & at the same time avoid in some degree the inconveniency, of an absolute ineligibility a 2^d time.

Col. Mason approved the idea. It had the sanction of experience in the instance of Cong^s and some of the Executives of the States. It rendered the Executive as effectually independent, as an ineligibility after his first election, and opened the way at the same time for the advantage of his future services. He preferred on the whole the election by the Nat^l Legislature: Tho' Candor obliged him to admit, that there was great danger of foreign influence, as had been suggested. This was the most serious objection with him that had been urged.

M^r Butler. The two great evils to be avoided are cabal at home, & influence from abroad. It will be difficult to avoid either if the Election be made by the Nat^l Legislature. On the other hand. The Gov^t should not be made so complex & unwieldy as to disgust the States. This would be the case, if the election sh^d be referred to the people. He liked best an election by Electors chosen by the Legislatures of the States. He was ag^{st} a re-eligibility at all events. He was also ag^{st} a ratio of votes in the States. An equality should prevail in this case. The reasons for departing from it do not hold in the case of the Executive as in that of the Legislature.

M^r Gerry approved of M^r Pinkney's motion as lessening the evil.

M^r Gov^r Morris was ag^{st} a rotation in every case. It formed a political School, in w^{ch} we were always governed by the scholars, and not by the Masters. The evils to be guarded ag^{st} in this case are. 1. the undue influence of the Legislature. 2. instability of Councils. 3. misconduct in office. To guard ag^{st} the first, we run into the second evil. We adopt a rotation which produces instability of Councils. To avoid Sylla we fall into Charibdis. A change of men is ever followed by a change of measures. We see this fully exemplified in the vicissitudes among ourselves, particularly in the State of Pen^a. The self-sufficiency of a victorious party scorns to tread in the paths of their predecessors. Rehoboam will not imitate Soloman. 2. the Rotation in office will not prevent intrigue and dependence on the Legislature. The man in office will look forward to the period at which he will become re-eligible. The distance of the period, the improbability of such a protraction of his life will be no obstacle. Such is the nature of man, formed by his benevolent author no doubt for wise ends, that altho' he knows his existence to be limited to a span, he takes his measures as if he were to live for ever. But taking another supposition, the inefficacy of the expedient will be manifest. If the magistrate does not look forward to his re-election to the Executive, he will be pretty sure to keep in view the opportunity of his going into the Legislature itself. He will have little objection then to an extension of power on a theatre where he expects to act a distinguished part; and will be very unwilling to take any step that may endanger his popularity with the Legislature, on his influence over which the figure he is to make will depend. 3. To avoid the third evil, impeachments will be essential. And hence an additional reason ag^{st} an election by the Legislature. He considered an election by the people as the best, by the Legislature as the worst, mode. Putting both these aside, he could not but favor the idea of M^r Wilson, of introducing a mixture of lot. It will diminish, if not destroy both cabal & dependence.

M^r Williamson was sensible that strong objections lay ag^{st} an election of the Executive by the Legislature, and that it opened a door for foreign influence. The principal objection ag^{st} an election by the people seemed to be, the disadvantage under which it would place the smaller States. He suggested as a cure for this difficulty, that each man should vote for 3 candidates, one of them he observed would be probably of his own State, the other 2. of some other States; and as probably of a small as a large one.

M^r Gov^r Morris liked the idea, suggesting as an amendment that each man should vote for two persons one of whom at least should not be of his own State.

M^r Madison also thought something valuable might be made of the suggestion with the proposed amendment of it. The second best man in this case would probably be the first, in fact. The only objection which occurred was that each Citizen after hav^g given his vote for his favorite fellow Citizen, w^d throw away his second on some obscure Citizen of another State, in order to ensure the object of his first choice. But it could hardly be supposed that the Citizens of many States would be so sanguine of having their favorite elected, as not to give their second vote with sincerity to the next object of their choice. It might moreover be provided in favor of the smaller States that the Executive should not be eligible more than ---- times in ---- years from the same State.

M^r Gerry. A popular election in this case is radically vicious. The ignorance of the people would put it in the power of some one set of men dispersed through the Union & acting in Concert to delude them into any appointment. He observed that such a Society of men existed in the Order of the Cincinnati. They are respectable, united, and influential. They will in fact elect the chief Magistrate in every instance, if the election be referred to the people. His respect for the characters composing this Society could not blind him to the danger & impropriety of throwing such a power into their hands.

M^r Dickinson. As far as he could judge from the discussions which had taken place during his attendance, insuperable objections lay ag^{st} an election of the Executive by the Nat^l Legislature; as also by the Legislatures or Executives of the States. He had long leaned towards an election by the people which he regarded as the best & purest source. Objections he was aware lay ag^{st} this mode, but not so great he thought as ag^{st} the other modes. The greatest difficulty in the opinion of the House seemed to arise from the partiality of the States to their respective Citizens. But might not this very partiality be turned to a useful purpose. Let the people of each State chuse its best Citizen. The people will know the most eminent characters of their own States, and the people of different States will feel an emulation in selecting those of which they will have the greatest reason to be proud. Out of the thirteen names thus selected, an Executive Magistrate may be chosen either by the Nat^l Legislature, or by Electors appointed by it.

On a Question which was moved for postponing M^r Pinkney's motion, in order to make way for some such proposition as had been hinted by M^r Williamson & others, it passed in the negative.

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On M^r Pinkney's motion that no person shall serve in the Executive more than 6 years in 12. years, it passed in the negative.

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On a motion that the members of the Committee be furnished with copies of the proceedings it was so determined; S. Carolina alone being in the negative.

It was then moved that the members of the House might take copies of the Resolutions which had been agreed to; which passed in the negative.

N. H. no. Mas. no. Con. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. Mary^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Gerry & M^r Butler moved to refer the resolution relating to the Executive (except the clause making it consist of a single person) to the Co[~m]ittee of detail.

M^r Wilson hoped that so important a branch of the System w^d not be committed untill a general principle sh^d be fixed by a vote of the House.

M^r Langdon. was for the commitment--Adj^d.

THURSDAY JULY. 26. IN CONVENTION.[12]

[12] "The affairs of the federal government are, I believe, in the utmost confusion: The convention is an expedient that will produce a decisive effect. It will either recover us from our present embarrassments or complete our ruin; for I do suspect that if what they recommend sho^d be rejected this wo^d be the case. But I trust that the presence of Gen^l Washington will have great weight in the body itself so as to overawe & keep under the demon of party, & that the signature of his name to whatever act shall be the result of their deliberations will secure its passage thro' the union."--Monroe to Jefferson, July 27, 1787 (Writings of Monroe, i., 173).

Col. Mason. In every stage of the Question relative to the Executive, the difficulty of the subject and the diversity of the opinions concerning it have appeared. Nor have any of the modes of constituting that department been satisfactory. 1. It has been proposed that the election should be made by the people at large; that is that an act which ought to be performed by those who know most of Eminent characters, & qualifications, should be performed by those who know least. 2. that the election should be made by the Legislatures of the States. 3. by the Executives of the States. Ag^{st} these modes also strong objections have been urged. 4. It has been proposed that the election should be made by Electors chosen by the people for that purpose. This was at first agreed to: But on further consideration has been rejected. 5. Since which, the mode of M^r Williamson, requiring each freeholder to vote for several candidates has been proposed. This seemed like many other propositions, to carry a plausible face, but on closer inspection is liable to fatal objections. A popular election in any form, as M^r Gerry has observed, would throw the appointment into the hands of the Cincinnati, a Society for the members of which he had a great respect, but which he never wished to have a preponderating influence in the Gov^t. 6. Another expedient was proposed by M^r Dickinson, which is liable to so palpable & material an inconvenience that he had little doubt of its being by this time rejected by himself. It would exclude every man who happened not to be popular within his own State; tho' the causes of his local unpopularity might be of such a nature as to recommend him to the States at large. 7. Among other expedients, a lottery has been introduced. But as the tickets do not appear to be in much demand, it will probably, not be carried on, and nothing therefore need be said on that subject. After reviewing all these various modes, he was led to conclude, that an election by the Nat^l Legislature as originally proposed, was the best. If it was liable to objections, it was liable to fewer than any other. He conceived at the same time that a second election ought to be absolutely prohibited. Having for his primary object for the pole-star of his political conduct, the preservation of the rights of the people, he held it as an essential point, as the very palladium of civil liberty, that the Great officers of State, and particularly the Executive should at fixed periods return to that mass from which they were at first taken, in order that they may feel & respect those rights & interests, Which are again to be personally valuable to them. He concluded with moving that the constitution of the Executive as reported by the Com^e of the whole be reinstated, viz. "that the Executive be appointed for seven years, & be ineligible a 2^d time."

M^r Davie seconded the motion.

Doc^r Franklin. It seems to have been imagined by some that the returning to the mass of the people was degrading the magistrate. This he thought was contrary to republican principles. In free Governments the rulers are the servants, and the people their superiors & sovereigns. For the former therefore to return among the latter was not to degrade but to promote them. And it would be imposing an unreasonable burden on them, to keep them always in a State of servitude, and not allow them to become again one of the Masters.

Question on Col. Masons motion as above; which passed in the affirmative

N. H. ay. Mass^{ts} not on floor. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris was now ag^{st} the whole paragraph. In answer to Col. Mason's position that a periodical return of the great officers of the State into the mass of the people, was the palladium of Civil liberty he w^d observe that on the same principle the Judiciary ought to be periodically degraded; certain it was that the Legislature ought on every principle, yet no one had proposed, or conceived that the members of it should not be re-eligible. In answer to Doc^r Franklin, that a return into the mass of the people would be a promotion, instead of a degradation, he had no doubt that our Executive like most others would have too much patriotism to shrink from the burthen of his office, and too much modesty not to be willing to decline the promotion.

On the question on the whole resolution as amended in the words following--"that a National Executive be instituted--to consist of a single person--to be chosen by the Nat^l legislature--for the term of seven years--to be ineligible a 2^d time--with power to carry into execution the nat^l laws--to appoint to offices in cases not otherwise provided for--to be removable on impeachment & conviction of mal-practice or neglect of duty--to receive a fixt compensation for the devotion of his time to the public service, to be paid out of the Nat^l treasury"--it passed in the affirmative

N. H. ay. Mass. not on floor. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a div^d. M^r Blair & Col. Mason ay. Gen^l Washington & M^r Madison no. M^r Randolph happened to be out of the House. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Mason moved "that the Co[~m]ittee of detail be instructed to receive a clause requiring certain qualifications of landed property & citizenship of the U. States, in members of the Legislature, and disqualifying persons having unsettled Acc^{ts} with or being indebted to the U. S., from being members of the Nat^l Legislature."--He observed that persons of the latter descriptions had frequently got into the State Legislatures, in order to promote laws that might shelter their delinquencies; and that this evil had crept into Cong^s if Report was to be regarded.

M^r Pinckney seconded the motion.

Mr. Gov^r Morris. If qualifications are proper, he w^d prefer them in the electors rather than the elected. As to debtors of the U. S. they are but few. As to persons having unsettled accounts he believed them to be pretty many. He thought however that such a discrimination would be both odious & useless, and in many instances, unjust & cruel. The delay of settlem^t had been more the fault of the Public than of the individuals. What will be done with those patriotic Citizens who have lent money, or services or property to their Country, without having been yet able to obtain a liquidation of their claims? Are they to be excluded?

M^r Ghorum was for leaving to the Legislature the providing ag^{st} such abuses as had been mentioned.

Col. Mason mentioned the parliamentary qualifications adopted in the Reign of Queen Anne, which he said had met with universal approbation.

M^r Madison had witnessed the zeal of men having acc^{ts} with the public, to get into the Legislatures for sinister purposes. He thought however that if any precaution were taken for excluding them, the one proposed by Col. Mason ought to be new modelled. It might be well to limit the exclusion to persons who had rec^d money from the public, and had not accounted for it.

M^r Gov^r Morris. It was a precept of great antiquity as well as of high authority that we should not be righteous overmuch. He thought we ought to be equally on our guard ag^{st} being wise overmuch. The proposed regulation would enable the Govern^t to exclude particular persons from office as long as they pleased. He mentioned the case of the Co[~m]ander in Chief's presenting his account for secret services, which he said was so moderate that every one was astonished at it; and so simple that no doubt could arise on it. Yet had the Auditor been disposed to delay the settlement, how easily he might have effected it, & how cruel w^d it be in such a case to keep a distinguished & meritorious Citizen under a temporary disability & disfranchisement. He mentioned this case merely to illustrate the objectionable nature of the proposition. He was opposed to such minutious regulations in a Constitution. The parliamentary qualifications quoted by Col. Mason, had been disregarded in practice; and was but a scheme of the landed ag^{st} the monied interest.

M^r Pinckney & Gen^l Pinckney moved to insert by way of amendm^t the words Judiciary & Executive so as to extend the qualifications to those departments which was agreed to nem con.

M^r Gerry thought the inconveniency of excluding a few worthy individuals who might be public debtors or have unsettled acc^{ts} ought not to be put in the scale ag^{st} the public advantages of the regulation, and that the motion did not go far enough.

M^r King observed that there might be great danger in requiring landed property as a qualification since it would exclude the monied interest, whose aids may be essential in particular emergencies to the public safety.

M^r Dickinson, was ag^{st} any recital of qualifications in the Constitution. It was impossible to make a compleat one, and a partial one w^d by implication tie up the hands of the Legislature from supplying the omissions. The best defence lay in the freeholders who were to elect the Legislature. Whilst this Source should remain pure, the Public interest would be safe. If it ever should be corrupt, no little expedients would repel the danger. He doubted the policy of interweaving into a Republican constitution a veneration for wealth. He had always understood that a veneration for poverty & virtue, were the objects of republican encouragement. It seemed improper that any man of merit should be subjected to disabilities in a Republic where merit was understood to form the great title to public trust, honors & rewards.

M^r Gerry if property be one object of Government, provisions to secure it cannot be improper.

M^r Madison moved to strike out the word landed, before the word "qualifications." If the proposition s^d be agreed to he wished the Committee to be at liberty to report the best criterion they could devise. Landed possessions were no certain evidence of real wealth. Many enjoyed them to a great extent who were more in debt than they were worth. The unjust Laws of the States had proceeded more from this class of men, than any others. It had often happened that men who had acquired landed property on credit, got into the Legislatures with a view of promoting an unjust protection ag^{st} their Creditors. In the next place, if a small quantity of land should be made the standard, it would be no security; if a large one, it would exclude the proper representatives of those classes of Citizens who were not landholders. It was politic as well as just that the interests & rights of every class should be duly represented & understood in the public Councils. It was a provision every where established that the Country should be divided into districts & representatives taken from each, in order that the Legislative Assembly might equally understand & sympathize with the rights of the people in every part of the Community. It was not less proper that every class of Citizens should have an opportunity of making their rights be felt & understood in the public Councils. The three principal classes into which our citizens were divisible, were the landed the commercial, & the manufacturing. The 2^d & 3^d class, bear as yet a small proportion to the first. The proportion however will daily increase. We see in the populous Countries in Europe now, what we shall be hereafter. These classes understand much less of each others interests & affairs, than men of the same class inhabiting different districts. It is particularly requisite therefore that the interests of one or two of them should not be left entirely to the care, or impartiality of the third. This must be the case if landed qualifications should be required; few of the mercantile, & scarcely any of the manufacturing class chusing whilst they continue in business to turn any part of their Stock into landed property. For these reasons he wished if it were possible that some other criterion than the mere possession of land should be devised. He concurred with M^r Gov^r Morris in thinking that qualifications in the Electors would be much more effectual than in the elected. The former would discriminate between real & ostensible property in the latter; But he was aware of the difficulty of forming any uniform standard that would suit the different circumstances & opinions prevailing in the different States.

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ded} the motion.

On the Question for striking out "landed"

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On Question on 1^{st} part of Col. Masons proposition as to "qualification of property & citizenship," as so amended

N. H. ay. Mas^{ts} ay. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

"The 2^d part, for disqualifying debtors, and persons having unsettled accounts," being under consideration

M^r Carrol moved to strike out "having unsettled accounts"

M^r Ghorum seconded the motion; observing that it would put the commercial & manufacturing part of the people on a worse footing than others as they would be most likely to have dealings with the public.

M^r L. Martin, if these words should be struck out, and the remaining words concerning debtors retained, it will be the interest of the latter class to keep their accounts unsettled as long as possible.

M^r Wilson was for striking them out. They put too much power in the hands of the Auditors, who might combine with rivals in delaying settlements in order to prolong the disqualifications of particular men. We should consider that we are providing a Constitution for future generations, and not merely for the peculiar circumstances of the moment. The time has been, and will again be, when the public safety may depend on the voluntary aids of individuals which will necessarily open acc^{ts} with the public, and when such acc^{ts} will be a characteristic of patriotism. Besides a partial enumeration of cases will disable the Legislature from disqualifying odious & dangerous characters.

M^r Langdon[13] was for striking out the whole clause for the reasons given by M^r Wilson. So many exclusions he thought too would render the system unacceptable to the people.

[13] "M^r Langdon is a man of considerable fortune, possesses a liberal mind, and a good plain understanding--about 40 years old."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 325.

M^r Gerry. If the argum^{ts} used today were to prevail, we might have a Legislature composed of Public debtors, pensioners, placemen & contractors. He thought the proposed qualifications would be pleasing to the people. They will be considered as a security ag^{st} unnecessary or undue burdens being imposed on them. He moved to add "pensioners" to the disqualified characters which was negatived.

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Con. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. Mary^d ay. V^a no. N. C. divided. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The last clause, relating to public debtors will exclude every importing merchant. Revenue will be drawn it is foreseen as much as possible, from trade. Duties of course will be bonded, and the Merch^{ts} will remain debtors to the public. He repeated that it had not been so much the fault of individuals as of the public that transactions between them had not been more generally liquidated & adjusted. At all events to draw from our short & scanty experience rules that are to operate through succeeding ages, does not savour much of real wisdom.

On question for striking out, "persons having unsettled accounts with the U. States."

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Elseworth was for disagreeing to the remainder of the clause disqualifying Public debtors; and for leaving to the wisdom of the Legislature and the virtue of the Citizens, the task of providing ag^{st} such evils. Is the smallest as well as the largest debtor to be excluded? Then every arrear of taxes will disqualify. Besides how is it to be known to the people when they elect who are or are not public debtors. The exclusion of pensioners & placemen in Engl^d is founded on a consideration not existing here. As persons of that sort are dependent on the Crown, they tend to increase its influence.

M^r Pinkney s^d he was at first a friend to the proposition, for the sake of the clause relating to qualifications of property; but he disliked the exclusion of public debtors; it went too far. It w^d exclude persons who had purchased confiscated property or should purchase Western territory of the public, and might be some obstacle to the sale of the latter.

On the question for agreeing to the clause disqualifying public debtors

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

Col. Mason, observed that it would be proper, as he thought, that some provision should be made in the Constitution ag^{st} choosing for the Seat of the Gen^l Gov^t the City or place at which the Seat of any State Gov^t might be fixt. There were 2 objections ag^{st} having them at the same place, which without mentioning others, required some precaution on the subject. The 1^{st} was that it tended to produce disputes concerning jurisdiction. The 2^d & principal one was that the intermixture of the two Legislatures tended to give a provincial tincture to y^e Nat^l deliberations. He moved that the Com^e be instructed to receive a clause to prevent the seat of the Nat^l Gov^t being in the same City or town with the Seat of the Gov^t of any State longer than untill the necessary public buildings could be erected.

M^r Alex. Martin 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Gov^r Morris did not dislike the idea, but was apprehensive that such a clause might make enemies of Philad^a & N. York which had expectations of becoming the Seat of the Gen^l Gov^t.

M^r Langdon approved the idea also: but suggested the case of a State moving its seat of Gov^t to the nat^l Seat after the erection of the Public buildings.

M^r Ghorum. The precaution may be evaded by the Nat^l Legisl^{re} by delaying to erect the Public buildings.

M^r Gerry conceived it to be the gen^l sense of America, that neither the Seat of a State Gov^t nor any large commercial City should be the seat of the Gen^l Gov^t.

M^r Williamson liked the idea, but knowing how much the passions of men were agitated by this matter, was apprehensive of turning them ag^{st} the System. He apprehended also that an evasion, might be practised in the way hinted by M^r Ghorum.

M^r Pinkney thought the Seat of a State Gov^t ought to be avoided; but that a large town or its vicinity would be proper for the Seat of the Gen^l Gov^t.

Col. Mason did not mean to press the motion at this time, nor to excite any hostile passions ag^{st} the system. He was content to withdraw the motion for the present.

M^r Butler was for fixing by the Constitution the place, & a central one, for the seat of the Nat^l Gov^t.

The proceedings since Monday last were referred unanimously to the Com^e of detail, and the Convention then unanimously adjourned till Monday, Aug^{st} 6. that the Com^e of detail might have time to prepare & report the Constitution. The whole proceedings as referred are as follow[14]:

[14] Madison's note says: "here copy them from the Journal p. 207." In the Journal they are given as having been "collected from the proceedings of the convention, as they are spread over the journal from June 19^{th} to July 26^{th}."--Journal of Federal Convention, 207. The dates show when the resolutions were agreed to, and are correct.

June 20. I. RESOLVED, That the Government of the United States ought to consist of a supreme legislative, judiciary, and executive.

June 21. II. RESOLVED, That the legislature consist of two branches.

III. RESOLVED, That the members of the first branch of the legislature ought to be elected by the people of the several states, for the term of two years; to be paid June 22. out of the publick treasury; to receive an adequate compensation for their services; to be of the age of June 23. twenty-five years at least; to be ineligible and incapable of holding any office under the authority of the United States (except those peculiarly belonging to the functions of the first branch) during the term of service of the first branch.

June 25. IV. RESOLVED, That the members of the second branch of the legislature of the United States ought to be chosen by the individual legislatures; to be of the age of June 26. thirty years at least; to hold their offices for six years, one third to go out biennally; to receive a compensation for the devotion of their time to the publick service; to be ineligible to and incapable of holding any office, under the authority of the United States (except those peculiarly belonging to the functions of the second branch) during the term for which they are elected, and for one year thereafter.

V. RESOLVED, That each branch ought to possess the right of originating acts.

VI. RESOLVED, That the national legislature ought to Postponed 27. possess the legislative rights vested in Congress by the July 16. confederation; and moreover, to legislate in all cases for the general interests of the union, and also in July 17. those to which the states are separately incompetent, or in which the harmony of the United States may be interrupted by the exercise of individual legislation.

VII. RESOLVED, That the legislative acts of the United States, made by virtue and in pursuance of the articles of union, and all treaties made and ratified under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the respective states, as far as those acts or treaties shall relate to the said states, or their July 17 citizens and inhabitants; and that the judiciaries of the several states shall be bound thereby in their decisions, any thing in the respective laws of the individual States to the contrary, notwithstanding.

July 16. VIII. RESOLVED, That in the original formation of the legislature of the United States, the first branch thereof shall consist of sixty-five members; of which number

New Hampshire shall send three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, Georgia three.

But as the present situation of the states may probably alter in the number of their inhabitants, the legislature of the United States shall be authorized, from time to time, to apportion the number of representatives; and in case any of the states shall hereafter be divided, or enlarged by addition of territory, or any two or more states united, or any new states created within the limits of the United States, the legislature of the United States shall possess authority to regulate the number of representatives, in any of the foregoing cases, upon the principle of their number of inhabitants according to the provisions hereafter mentioned, namely--Provided always, that representation ought to be proportioned to direct taxation. And in order to ascertain the alteration in the direct taxation, which may be required from time to time by the changes in the relative circumstances of the states--

IX. RESOLVED, That a census be taken within six years from the first meeting of the legislature of the United States, and once within the term of every ten years afterwards, of all the inhabitants of the United States, in the manner and according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their resolution of April 18, 1783; and that the legislature of the United States shall proportion the direct taxation accordingly.

X. RESOLVED, That all bills for raising or appropriating money, and for fixing the salaries of the officers of the government of the United States, shall originate in the first branch of the legislature of the United States, and shall not be altered or amended by the second branch; and that no money shall be drawn from the publick treasury, but in pursuance of appropriations to be originated by the first branch.

XI. RESOLVED, That in the second branch of the legislature of the United States, each state shall have an equal vote.

July 26. XII. RESOLVED, That a national executive be instituted, to consist of a single person; to be chosen by the national legislature, for the term of seven years; to be ineligible a second time; with power to carry into execution the national laws; to appoint to offices in cases not otherwise provided for; to be removable on impeachment, and conviction of mal-practice or neglect of duty; to receive a fixed compensation for the devotion of his time to the publick service; to be paid out of the publick treasury.

July 21. XIII. RESOLVED, That the national executive shall have a right to negative any legislative act, which shall not be afterwards passed, unless by two third parts of each branch of the national legislature.

July 18. XIV. RESOLVED, That a national judiciary be established, to consist of one supreme tribunal, the judges of which July 21. shall be appointed by the second branch of the national July 18. legislature; to hold their offices during good behaviour; to receive punctually, at stated times, a fixed compensation for their services, in which no diminution shall be made, so as to affect the persons actually in office at the time of such diminution.

XV. RESOLVED, That the national legislature be empowered to appoint inferior tribunals.

XVI. RESOLVED, That the jurisdiction of the national judiciary shall extend to cases arising under laws passed by the general legislature; and to such other questions as involve the national peace and harmony.

XVII. RESOLVED, That provision ought to be made for the admission of states lawfully arising within the limits of the United States, whether from a voluntary junction of government and territory, or otherwise, with the consent of a number of voices in the national legislature less than the whole.

XVIII. RESOLVED, That a republican form of government shall be guarantied to each state; and that each state shall be protected against foreign and domestick violence.

July 23. XIX. RESOLVED, That provision ought to be made for the amendment of the articles of union, whensoever it shall seem necessary.

XX. RESOLVED, That the legislative, executive, and judiciary powers within the several states, and of the national government, ought to be bound, by oath, to support the articles of union.

XXI. RESOLVED, That the amendments which shall be offered to the confederation by the convention ought, at a proper time or times after the approbation of Congress, to be submitted to an assembly or assemblies of representatives, recommended by the several legislatures, to be expressly chosen by the people to consider and decide thereon.

XXII. RESOLVED, That the representation in the second branch of the legislature of the United States consist of two members from each state, who shall vote per capita.

July 26. XXIII. RESOLVED, That it be an instruction to the committee, to whom were referred the proceedings of the convention for the establishment of a national government, to receive a clause or clauses, requiring certain qualifications of property and citizenship, in the United States, for the executive, the judiciary, and the members of both branches of the legislature of the United States.

With the above resolutions were referred the propositions offered by M^r C. Pinckney on the 29^{th} of May, & by M^r Patterson on the 15^{th} of June.[15]

[15] "Aug 1. 1787 WILLIAMSB.

"DEAR COL.

"We are here & I believe every where all Impatience to know something of your conventional Deliberations. If you cannot tell us what you are doing, you might at least give us some Information of what you are not doing. This w^d afford food for political conjecture, and perhaps be sufficient to satisfy present Impatience. I hope you have already discovered the means of preserving the American Empire united--& that the scheme of a Disunion has been found pregnant with y^e greatest Evils--But we are not at this distance able to judge with any accuracy upon subjects so truly important & interesting as those w^{ch} must engage you at present--We can only hope, that you will all resemble Cæsar, at least in one particular: 'nil actum reputans si quid superesset agendum';--& that your Exertions will be commensurate to y^e great Expectations w^{ch} have been formed... "J. MADISON."[A]

[A] President of William and Mary College, and the first Bishop of the Episcopal Church in Virginia. He was a second cousin of James Madison, of Orange. (Mad. MSS.)

"RICHMOND Aug^t 5. 87.

"DEAR SIR,

"I am much obliged to you for your communication of the proceedings of y^e Convention, since I left them; for I feel that anxiety about y^e result, which it's Importance must give to every honest citizen. If I thought that my return could contribute in the smallest degree to it's Improvement, nothing should Keep me away. But as I know that the talents, knowledge, & well-established character, of our present delegates have justly inspired the country with y^e most entire confidence in their determinations; & that my vote could only operate to produce a division, & so destroy y^e vote of y^e State, I think that my attendance now would certainly be useless, perhaps injurious.

"I am credibly inform'd that M^r Henry has openly express'd his disapprobation of the circular letter of Congress, respecting y^e payment of British debts; & that he has declared his opinion that y^e Interests of this state cannot safely be trusted with that body. The doctrine of three confederacies, or great Republics, has its advocates here. I have heard Hervie support it, along with y^e extinction of State Legislatures within each great Department. The necessity of some independent power to controul the Assembly by a negative, seems now to be admitted by y^e most zealous republicans--they only differ about y^e mode of constituting such a power. B. Randolph seems to think that a magistrate annually elected by y^e people might exercise such a controul as independently as y^e King of G. B. I hope that our representative, Marshall, will be a powerful aid to Mason in the next Assembly. He has observ'd the actual depravation of mens manners, under y^e corrupting Influence of our Legislature; and is convinc'd that nothing but y^e adoption of some efficient plan from y^e Convention can prevent anarchy first, & civil convulsions afterwards. M^r H----y has certainly converted a majority of Prince Edward, formerly y^e most averse to paper money, to y^e patronage of it....

"Your friend & humble serv^t. "JAMES MCCLURG." (Mad. MSS.)

MONDAY AUGUST 6^{TH}. IN CONVENTION

M^r John Francis Mercer from Maryland took his seat.

M^r Rutlidge delivered in the Report of the Committee of detail as follows: a printed copy being at the same time furnished to each member[16]:

[16] Madison's printed copy is marked: "As Reported by Com^e of Detail viz of five. Aug. 6. 1787." It is a large folio of seven pages. In the enumeration of the Articles by a misprint VI. was repeated, and the alterations in Article VII. and succeeding articles were made by Madison. In Sect. II of Article VI., as it was printed, it appeared: "The enacting stile of the laws of the United States shall be. 'Be it enacted and it is hereby enacted by the House of Representatives, and by the Senate of the United States, in Congress assembled,'" which Madison altered to read: "The enacting stile of the laws of the United States shall be. 'Be it enacted by the Senate & representatives, in Congress assembled.'" The printed copy among the Madison papers is a duplicate of the copy filed by General Washington with the papers of the Constitution, and Sec. II is there given as actually printed.--Journal of the Federal Convention, 219. (Const. MSS.)

Madison accurately transcribed the report for his journal and it is this copy which is used in the text.

"We the people of the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina, and Georgia, do ordain, declare, and establish the following Constitution for the Government of Ourselves and our Posterity.

ARTICLE I

The stile of the Government shall be, "The United States of America."

II

The Government shall consist of supreme legislative, executive, and judicial powers.

III

The legislative power shall be vested in a Congress, to consist of two separate and distinct bodies of men, a House of Representatives and a Senate; each of which shall in all cases have a negative on the other. The Legislature shall meet on the first Monday in December in every year.

IV

Sect. 1. The members of the House of Representatives shall be chosen every second year, by the people of the several States comprehended within this Union. The qualifications of the electors shall be the same, from time to time, as those of the electors in the several States, of the most numerous branch of their own legislatures.

Sect. 2. Every member of the House of Representatives shall be of the age of twenty five years at least; shall have been a citizen in the United States for at least three years before his election; and shall be, at the time of his election, a resident of the State in which he shall be chosen.

Sect. 3. The House of Representatives shall, at its first formation, and until the number of citizens and inhabitants shall be taken in the manner hereinafter described, consist of sixty-five Members, of whom three shall be chosen in New-Hampshire, eight in Massachusetts, one in Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, five in Connecticut, six in New-York, four in New-Jersey, eight in Pennsylvania, one in Delaware, six in Maryland, ten in Virginia, five in North-Carolina, five in South-Carolina, and three in Georgia.

Sect. 4. As the proportions of numbers in different States will alter from time to time; as some of the States may hereafter be divided; as others may be enlarged by addition of territory; as two or more States may be united; as new States will be erected within the limits of the United States, the Legislature shall, in each of these cases, regulate the number of representatives by the number of inhabitants, according to the provisions herein after made, at the rate of one for every forty thousand.

Sect. 5. All bills for raising or appropriating money, and for fixing the salaries of the officers of Government, shall originate in the House of Representatives, and shall not be altered or amended by the Senate. No money shall be drawn from the Public Treasury, but in pursuance of appropriations that shall originate in the House of Representatives.

Sect. 6. The House of Representatives shall have the sole power of impeachment. It shall choose its Speaker and other officers.

Sect. 7. Vacancies in the House of Representatives shall be supplied by writs of election from the executive authority of the State, in the representation from which they shall happen.

V

Sect. 1. The Senate of the United States shall be chosen by the Legislatures of the several States. Each Legislature shall chuse two members. Vacancies may be supplied by the Executive until the next meeting of the Legislature. Each member shall have one vote.

Sect. 2. The Senators shall be chosen for six years; but immediately after the first election they shall be divided, by lot, into three classes, as nearly as may be, numbered one, two and three. The seats of the members of the first class shall be vacated at the expiration of the second year, of the second class at the expiration of the fourth year, of the third class at the expiration of the sixth year, so that a third part of the members may be chosen every second year.

Sect. 3. Every member of the Senate shall be of the age of thirty years at least; shall have been a citizen in the United States for at least four years before his election; and shall be, at the time of his election, a resident of the State for which he shall be chosen.

Sect. 4. The Senate shall chuse its own President and other officers.

VI

Sect. 1. The times and places and manner of holding the elections of the members of each House shall be prescribed by the Legislature of each State; but their provisions concerning them may, at any time, be altered by the Legislature of the United States.

Sect. 2. The Legislature of the United States shall have authority to establish such uniform qualifications of the members of each House, with regard to property, as to the said Legislature shall seem expedient.

Sect. 3. In each House a majority of the members shall constitute a quorum to do business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day.

Sect. 4. Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members.

Sect. 5. Freedom of speech and debate in the Legislature shall not be impeached or questioned in any Court or place out of the Legislature; and the members of each House shall, in all cases, except treason felony and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest during their attendance at Congress, and in going to and returning from it.

Sect. 6. Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings; may punish its members for disorderly behaviour; and may expel a member.

Sect. 7. The House of Representatives, and the Senate, when it shall be acting in a legislative capacity, shall keep a journal of their proceedings, and shall, from time to time, publish them: and the yeas and nays of the members of each House, on any question, shall at the desire of one-fifth part of the members present, be entered on the journal.

Sect. 8. Neither House, without the consent of the other, shall adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other place than that at which the two Houses are sitting. But this regulation shall not extend to the Senate, when it shall exercise the powers mentioned in the ---- article.

Sect. 9. The members of each House shall be ineligible to, and incapable of holding any office under the authority of the United States, during the time for which they shall respectively be elected: and the members of the Senate shall be ineligible to, and incapable of holding any such office for one year afterwards.

Sect. 10. The members of each House shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained and paid by the State, in which they shall be chosen.

Sect. 11. The enacting stile of the laws of the United States shall be, "Be it enacted by the Senate and Representatives in Congress assembled."

Sect. 12. Each House shall possess the right of originating bills, except in the cases beforementioned.

Sect. 13. Every bill, which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States for his revision: if, upon such revision, he approve of it, he shall signify his approbation by signing it: But if, upon such revision, it shall appear to him improper for being passed into a law, he shall return it, together with his objections against it, to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal and proceed to reconsider the bill. But if after such reconsideration, two thirds of that House shall, notwithstanding the objections of the President, agree to pass it, it shall together with his objections, be sent to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of the other House also, it shall become a law. But in all such cases, the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays; and the names of the persons voting for or against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall be a law, unless the legislature, by their adjournment, prevent its return; in which case it shall not be a law.

VII

Sect. 1. The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States;

To establish an uniform rule of naturalization throughout the United States;

To coin money;

To regulate the value of foreign coin;

To fix the standard of weights and measures;

To establish Post-offices;

To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States;

To appoint a Treasurer by ballot;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To declare the law and punishment of piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and the punishment of counterfeiting the coin of the United States, and of offences against the law of nations;

To subdue a rebellion in any State, on the application of its legislature;

To make war;

To raise armies;

To build and equip fleets;

To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions;

And to make all laws that shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested, by this Constitution, in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof;

Sect. 2. Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against the United States, or any of them; and in adhering to the enemies of the United States, or any of them. The Legislature of the United States shall have power to declare the punishment of treason. No person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses. No attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, nor forfeiture, except during the life of the person attainted.

Sect. 3. The proportions of direct taxation shall be regulated by the whole number of white and other free citizens and inhabitants, of every age, sex and condition, including those bound to servitude for a term of years, and three fifths of all other persons not comprehended in the foregoing description, (except Indians not paying taxes) which number shall, within six years after the first meeting of the Legislature, and within the term of every ten years afterwards, be taken in such manner as the said Legislature shall direct.

Sect. 4. No tax or duty shall be laid by the Legislature on articles exported from any State; nor on the migration or importation of such persons as the several States shall think proper to admit; nor shall such migration or importation be prohibited.

Sect. 5. No capitation tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census hereinbefore directed to be taken.

Sect. 6. No navigation act shall be passed without the assent of two thirds of the members present in each House.

Sect. 7. The United States shall not grant any title of Nobility.

VIII

The acts of the Legislature of the United States made in pursuance of this Constitution, and all treaties made under the authority of the United States shall be the supreme law of the several States, and of the citizens and inhabitants; and the judges in the several States shall be bound thereby in their decisions; any thing in the Constitutions or laws of the several States to the contrary notwithstanding.

IX

Sect 1. The Senate of the United States shall have power to make treaties, and to appoint Ambassadors, and Judges of the Supreme Court.

Sect. 2. In all disputes and controversies now subsisting, or that may hereafter subsist between two or more States, respecting jurisdiction or territory, the Senate shall possess the following powers. Whenever the Legislature, or the Executive authority, or lawful agent of any State, in controversy with another, shall by memorial to the Senate, state the matter in question, and apply for a hearing; notice of such memorial and application shall be given by order of the Senate, to the Legislature or the Executive authority of the other State in Controversy. The Senate shall also assign a day for the appearance of the parties, by their agents, before the House. The Agents shall be directed to appoint, by joint consent, commissioners or judges to constitute a Court for hearing and determining the matter in question. But if the Agents cannot agree, the Senate shall name three persons out of each of the several States; and from the list of such persons each party shall alternately strike out one, until the number shall be reduced to thirteen; and from that number not less than seven nor more than nine names, as the Senate shall direct, shall in their presence, be drawn out by lot; and the persons whose names shall be so drawn, or any five of them shall be commissioners or Judges to hear and finally determine the controversy; provided a majority of the Judges, who shall hear the cause, agree in the determination. If either party shall neglect to attend at the day assigned, without shewing sufficient reasons for not attending, or being present shall refuse to strike, the Senate shall proceed to nominate three persons out of each State, and the Clerk of the Senate shall strike in behalf of the party absent or refusing. If any of the parties shall refuse to submit to the authority of such Court; or shall not appear to prosecute or defend their claim or cause, the Court shall nevertheless proceed to pronounce judgment. The judgment shall be final and conclusive. The proceedings shall be transmitted to the President of the Senate, and shall be lodged among the public records for the security of the parties concerned. Every Commissioner shall, before he sit in judgment, take an oath, to be administered by one of the Judges of the Supreme or Superior Court of the State where the cause shall be tried, "well and truly to hear and determine the matter in question according to the best of his judgment, without favor, affection, or hope of reward."

Sect. 3. All controversies concerning lands claimed under different grants of two or more States, whose jurisdictions, as they respect such lands, shall have been decided or adjusted subsequent to such grants, or any of them, shall, on application to the Senate, be finally determined, as near as may be, in the same manner as is before prescribed for deciding controversies between different States.

X

Sect. 1. The Executive Power of the United States shall be vested in a single person. His stile shall be, "The President of the United States of America;" and his title shall be, "His Excellency." He shall be elected by ballot by the Legislature. He shall hold his office during the term of seven years; but shall not be elected a second time.

Sect. 2. He shall, from time to time, give information to the Legislature, of the state of the Union: he may recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary, and expedient: he may convene them on extraordinary occasions. In case of disagreement between the two Houses, with regard to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he thinks proper: he shall take care that the laws of the United States be duly and faithfully executed: he shall commission all the officers of the United States; and shall appoint officers in all cases not otherwise provided for by this Constitution. He shall receive Ambassadors, and may correspond with the supreme Executives of the several States. He shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons; but his pardon shall not be pleadable in bar of an impeachment. He shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several States. He shall, at stated times, receive for his services, a compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during his continuance in office. Before he shall enter on the duties of his department, he shall take the following oath or affirmation, "I ---- solemnly swear, (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States of America." He shall be removed from his office on impeachment by the House of Representatives, and conviction in the Supreme Court, of treason, bribery, or corruption. In case of his removal as aforesaid, death, resignation, or disability to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the President of the Senate shall exercise those powers and duties, until another President of the United States be chosen, or until the disability of the President be removed.

XI

Sect. 1. The Judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as shall, when necessary, from time to time, be constituted by the Legislature of the United States.

Sect. 2. The Judges of the Supreme Court, and of the Inferior Courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour. They shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

Sect. 3. The Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court shall extend to all cases arising under laws passed by the Legislature of the United States; to all cases affecting Ambassadors, other Public Ministers and Consuls; to the trial of impeachments of officers of the United States; to all cases of Admiralty and maritime jurisdiction; to controversies between two or more States, (except such as shall regard Territory or Jurisdiction) between a State and Citizens of another State, between Citizens of different States, and between a State or the Citizens thereof and foreign States, citizens or subjects. In cases of impeachment, cases affecting Ambassadors, other Public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be party, this jurisdiction shall be original. In all the other cases beforementioned, it shall be appellate, with such exceptions and under such regulations as the Legislature shall make. The Legislature may assign any part of the jurisdiction abovementioned (except the trial of the President of the United States) in the manner, and under the limitations which it shall think proper, to such Inferior Courts, as it shall constitute from time to time.

Sect. 4. The trial of all criminal offences (except in cases of impeachments) shall be in the State where they shall be committed; and shall be by Jury.

Sect. 5. Judgment, in cases of Impeachment, shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honour, trust or profit, under the United States. But the party convicted shall, nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment according to law.

XII

No State shall coin money; nor grant letters of marque and reprisal; nor enter into any Treaty, alliance, or confederation; nor grant any title of Nobility.

XIII

No State, without the consent of the Legislature of the United States, shall emit bills of credit, or make any thing but specie a tender in payment of debts; nor lay imposts or duties on imports; nor keep troops or ships of war in time of peace; nor enter into any agreement or compact with another State, or with any foreign power; nor engage in any war, unless it shall be actually invaded by enemies, or the danger of invasion be so imminent, as not to admit of a delay, until the Legislature of the United States can be consulted.

XIV

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States.

XV

Any person charged with treason, felony or high misdemeanor in any State, who shall flee from justice, and shall be found in any other State, shall, on demand of the Executive power of the State from which he fled, be delivered up and removed to the State having jurisdiction of the offence.

XVI

Full faith shall be given in each State to the acts of the Legislatures, and to the records and judicial proceedings of the Courts and magistrates of every other State.

XVII

New States lawfully constituted or established within the limits of the United States may be admitted, by the Legislature, into this government; but to such admission the consent of two thirds of the members present in each House shall be necessary. If a new State shall arise within the limits of any of the present States, the consent of the Legislatures of such States shall be also necessary to its admission. If the admission be consented to, the new States shall be admitted on the same terms with the original States. But the Legislature may make conditions with the new States, concerning the Public debt which shall be then subsisting.

XVIII

The United States shall guaranty to each State a Republican form of Government; and shall protect each State against foreign invasions, and, on the application of its Legislature, against domestic violence.

XIX

On the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the States in the Union, for an amendment of this Constitution, the Legislature of the United States shall call a convention for that purpose.

XX

The members of the Legislatures, and the Executive and Judicial officers of the United States, and of the several States, shall be bound by oath to support this Constitution.

XXI

The ratification of the Conventions of ---- States shall be sufficient for organizing this Constitution.

XXII

This Constitution shall be laid before the United States in Congress Assembled, for their approbation; and it is the opinion of this Convention, that it should be afterwards submitted to a Convention chosen, under the recommendation of its legislature, in order to receive the ratification of such Convention.

XXIII

To introduce this government, it is the opinion of this Convention, that each assenting Convention should notify its assent and ratification to the United States in Congress assembled; that Congress, after receiving the assent and ratification of the Conventions of ---- States, should appoint and publish a day, as early as may be, and appoint a place, for commencing proceedings under this Constitution; that after such publication, the Legislatures of the several States should elect members of the Senate, and direct the election of members of the House of Representatives; and that the members of the Legislature should meet at the time and place assigned by Congress, and should, as soon as may be, after their meeting, choose the President of the United States, and proceed to execute this Constitution.

A motion was made to adjourn till Wednesday, in order to give leisure to examine the Report; which passed in the negative--

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. P^a ay. M^d ay. Virg. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no.

The House then adjourned till to-morrow 11 OC.

TUESDAY AUGUST 7.[17] IN CONVENTION

[17] Although the secrecy of the proceedings was guarded carefully, the reason of the long adjournment was generally known outside of the Convention.

"The Convention adjourned about three weeks ago and appointed a Committee consisting of M^r Rutlege, M^r Randolph, M^r Wilson, M^r Elsworth, & M^r Gorham to draw into form the measures which had been agreed upon--they reassembled last Monday sen'night to receive the report--I suppose we shall have the result of this great business in a few weeks more."--Edward Carrington to Monroe, August 7, 1787. Monroe MSS.

Cf. King's account of the debate confirming the accuracy of Madison's report (King's Life and Correspondence of Rufus King, i., 617).

The Report of the Committee of detail being taken up,

M^r Pinkney moved that it be referred to a Committee of the whole. This was strongly opposed by M^r Ghorum & several others, as likely to produce unnecessary delay; and was negatived, Delaware Mary^d & Virg^a only being in the affirmative.

The preamble of the Report was agreed to nem. con. So were Art: I & II.

Art: III considered. Col. Mason doubted the propriety of giving each branch a negative on the other "in all cases." There were some cases in which it was he supposed not intended to be given as in the case of balloting for appointments.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to insert "legislative acts" instead of "all cases."

M^r Williamson 2^{ds} him.

M^r Sherman. This will restrain the operation of the clause too much. It will particularly exclude a mutual negative in the case of ballots, which he hoped would take place.

M^r Ghorum contended that elections ought to be made by joint ballot. If separate ballots should be made for the President, and the two branches should be each attached to a favorite, great delay contention & confusion may ensue. These inconveniences have been felt in Mas^{ts} in the election of officers of little importance compared with the Executive of the U. States. The only objection ag^{st} a joint ballot is that it may deprive the Senate of their due weight; but this ought not to prevail over the respect due to the public tranquility & welfare.

M^r Wilson was for a joint ballot in several cases at least; particularly in the choice of the President, and was therefore for the amendment. Disputes between the two Houses during & concern^g the vacancy of the Executive might have dangerous consequences.

Col. Mason thought the amendment of M^r Gov^r Morris extended too far. Treaties are in a subsequent part declared to be laws, they will therefore be subjected to a negative; altho' they are to be made as proposed by the Senate alone. He proposed that the mutual negative should be restrained to "cases requiring the distinct assent" of the two Houses.

M^r Gov^r Morris thought this but a repetition of the same thing; the mutual negative and distinct assent, being equivalent expressions. Treaties he thought were not laws.

M^r Madison moved to strike out the words each of which shall in all cases, have a negative on the other; the idea being sufficiently expressed in the preceding member of the article; vesting the "legislative power" in "distinct bodies," especially as the respective powers and mode of exercising them were fully delineated in a subsequent article.

Gen^l Pinkney 2^{ded} the motion.

On question for inserting legislative Acts as moved by M^r Gov^r Morris

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On question for agreeing to M^r M's motion to strike out &c.----

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison wished to know the reasons of the Com^e for fixing by y^e Constitution the time of Meeting for the Legislature; and suggested, that it be required only that one meeting at least should be held every year leaving the time to be fixed or varied by law.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out the sentence. It was improper to tie down the Legislature to a particular time, or even to require a meeting every year. The public business might not require it.

M^r Pinkney concurred with M^r Madison.

M^r Ghorum. If the time be not fixed by the Constitution, disputes will arise in the Legislature; and the States will be at a loss to adjust thereto, the times of their elections. In the N. England States the annual time of meeting had been long fixed by their Charters & Constitutions, and no inconvenience had resulted. He thought it necessary that there should be one meeting at least every year as a check on the Executive department.

M^r Elseworth was ag^{st} striking out the words. The Legislature will not know till they are met whether the public interest required their meeting or not. He could see no impropriety in fixing the day, as the Convention could judge of it as well as the Legislature.

M^r Wilson thought on the whole it would be best to fix the day.

M^r King could not think there would be a necessity for a meeting every year. A great vice in our system was that of legislating too much. The most numerous objects of legislation belong to the States. Those of the Nat^l Legislature were but few. The chief of them were commerce & revenue. When these should be once settled alterations would be rarely necessary & easily made.

M^r Madison thought if the time of meeting should be fixed by a law it w^d be sufficiently fixed & there would be no difficulty then as had been suggested, on the part of the States in adjusting their elections to it. One consideration appeared to him to militate strongly ag^{st} fixing a time by the Constitution. It might happen that the Legislature might be called together by the public exigencies & finish their Session but a short time before the annual period. In this case it would be extremely inconvenient to reassemble so quickly & without the least necessity. He thought one annual meeting ought to be required; but did not wish to make two unavoidable.

Col. Mason thought the objections against fixing the time insuperable: but that an annual meeting ought to be required as essential to the preservation of the Constitution. The extent of the Country will supply business. And if it should not, the Legislature, besides legislative, is to have inquisitorial powers, which cannot safely be long kept in a state of suspension.

M^r Sherman was decided for fixing the time, as well as for frequent meetings of the Legislative body. Disputes and difficulties will arise between the two Houses, & between both & the States, if the time be changeable--frequent meetings of Parliament were required at the Revolution in England as an essential safeguard of liberty. So also are annual meetings in most of the American charters & constitutions. There will be business eno' to require it. The Western Country, and the great extent and varying state of our affairs in general will supply objects.

M^r Randolph was ag^{st} fixing any day irrevocably; but as there was no provision made any where in the Constitution for regulating the periods of meeting, and some precise time must be fixed, untill the Legislature shall make provision, he could not agree to strike out the words altogether. Instead of which he moved to add the words following--"unless a different day shall be appointed by law."

M^r Madison 2^{ded} the motion, & on the question

N. H. no. Mass. ay. C^t no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out Dec^r & insert May. It might frequently happen that our measures ought to be influenced by those in Europe, which were generally planned during the Winter and of which intelligence would arrive in the Spring.

M^r Madison 2^{ded} the motion, he preferred May to Dec^r because the latter would require the travelling to & from the seat of Gov^t in the most inconvenient seasons of the year.

M^r Wilson. The Winter is the most convenient season for business.

M^r Elseworth. The summer will interfere too much with private business, that of almost all the probable members of the Legislature being more or less connected with agriculture.

M^r Randolph. The time is of no great moment now, as the Legislature can vary it. On looking into the Constitutions of the States, he found that the times of their elections with which the election of the Nat^l Representatives would no doubt be made to coincide, would suit better with Dec^r than May. And it was advisable to render our innovations as little incommodious as possible.

On the question for "May" instead of "Dec^r"

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Read moved to insert after the word "Senate," the words, "subject to the Negative to be hereafter provided." His object was to give an absolute Negative to the Executive--He considered this as so essential to the Constitution, to the preservation of liberty, & to the public welfare, that his duty compelled him to make the Motion.

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ded} him. And on the question

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Rutlidge. Altho' it is agreed on all hands that an annual meeting of the Legislature should be made necessary, yet that point seems not to be free from doubt as the clause stands. On this suggestion, "Once at least in every year," were inserted, nem. con.

Art. III with the foregoing alterations was ag^d to nem. con., and is as follows: "The Legislative power shall be vested in a Congress to consist of 2 separate & distinct bodies of men; a House of Rep^s & a Senate. The Legislature shall meet at least once in every year, and such meeting shall be on the 1^{st} Monday in Dec^r unless a different day shall be appointed by law."

"Article IV. Sect. 1. taken up."

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out the last member of the section beginning with the words "qualifications of Electors," in order that some other provision might be substituted which w^d restrain the right of suffrage to freeholders.

M^r Fitzsimons 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Williamson was opposed to it.

M^r Wilson. This part of the Report was well considered by the Committee, and he did not think it could be changed for the better. It was difficult to form any uniform rule of qualifications for all the States. Unnecessary innovations he thought too should be avoided. It would be very hard & disagreeable for the same persons at the same time, to vote for representatives in the State Legislature and to be excluded from a vote for those in the Nat^l Legislature.

M^r Gov^r Morris. Such a hardship would be neither great nor novel. The people are accustomed to it and not dissatisfied with it, in several of the States. In some the qualifications are different for the choice of the Gov^r & Representatives; In others for different Houses of the Legislature. Another objection ag^{st} the clause as it stands is that it makes the qualifications of the Nat^l Legislature depend on the will of the States, which he thought not proper.

M^r Elseworth. thought the qualifications of the electors stood on the most proper footing. The right of suffrage was a tender point, and strongly guarded by most of the State Constitutions. The people will not readily subscribe to the Nat^l Constitution if it should subject them to be disfranchised. The States are the best Judges of the circumstances & temper of their own people.

Col. Mason. The force of habit is certainly not attended to by those Gentlemen who wish for innovations on this point. Eight or nine States have extended the right of suffrage beyond the freeholders. What will the people there say, if they should be disfranchised. A power to alter the qualifications would be a dangerous power in the hands of the Legislature.

M^r Butler. There is no right of which the people are more jealous than that of suffrage. Abridgments of it tend to the same revolution as in Holland where they have at length thrown all power into the hands of the Senates, who fill up vacancies themselves, and form a rank aristocracy.

M^r Dickinson. had a very different idea of the tendency of vesting the right of suffrage in the freeholders of the Country. He considered them as the best guardians of liberty; And the restriction of the right to them as a necessary defence ag^{st} the dangerous influence of those multitudes without property & without principle with which our Country like all others, will in time abound. As to the unpopularity of the innovation it was in his opinion chimerical. The great mass of our Citizens is composed at this time of freeholders, and will be pleased with it.

M^r Elseworth. How shall the freehold be defined? Ought not every man who pays a tax, to vote for the representative who is to levy & dispose of his money? Shall the wealthy merchants & manufacturers, who will bear a full share of the public burthens be not allowed a voice in the imposition of them. Taxation & representation ought to go together.

M^r Gov^r Morris. He had long learned not to be the dupe of words. The sound of aristocracy therefore had no effect on him. It was the thing, not the name, to which he was opposed, and one of his principal objections to the Constitution as it is now before us, is that it threatens this Country with an aristocracy. The aristocracy will grow out of the House of Representatives. Give the votes to people who have no property, and they will sell them to the rich who will be able to buy them. We should not confine our attention to the present moment. The time is not distant when this Country will abound with mechanics & manufacturers who will receive their bread from their employers. Will such men be the secure & faithful guardians of liberty? Will they be the impregnable barrier ag^{st} aristocracy?--He was as little duped by the association of the words, "taxation & Representation." The man who does not give his vote freely is not represented. It is the man who dictates the vote. Children do not vote. Why? because they want prudence, because they have no will of their own. The ignorant & the dependent can be as little trusted with the public interest. He did not conceive the difficulty of defining "freeholders" to be insuperable. Still less that the restriction could be unpopular. 9/10 of the people are at present freeholders and these will certainly be pleased with it. As to Merch^{ts}. &c. if they have wealth & value the right they can acquire it. If not they don't deserve it.

Fac-Simile. Facing Page (part 3)

Col. Mason. We all feel too strongly the remains of antient prejudices, and view things too much through a British medium. A Freehold is the qualification in England, & hence it is imagined to be the only proper one. The true idea in his opinion was that every man having evidence of attachment to & permanent common interest with the Society ought to share in all its rights & privileges. Was this qualification restrained to freeholders? Does no other kind of property but land evidence a common interest in the proprietor? does nothing besides property mark a permanent attachment. Ought the merchant, the monied man, the parent of a number of children whose fortunes are to be pursued in his own Country to be viewed as suspicious characters, and unworthy to be trusted with the common rights of their fellow Citizens.

M^r Madison. the right of suffrage is certainly one of the fundamental articles of republican Government, and ought not to be left to be regulated by the Legislature. A gradual abridgment of this right has been the mode in which aristocracies have been built on the ruins of popular forms. Whether the Constitutional qualification ought to be a freehold, would with him depend much on the probable reception such a change would meet with in States where the right was now exercised by every description of people. In several of the States a freehold was now the qualification. Viewing the subject in its merits alone, the freeholders of the Country would be the safest depositories of Republican liberty. In future times a great majority of the people will not only be without landed, but any other sort of property. These will either combine, under the influence of their common situation: in which case, the rights of property & the public liberty, will not be secure in their hands: or which is more probable, they will become the tools of opulence & ambition, in which case there will be equal danger on another side. The example of England has been misconceived (by Col. Mason.) A very small proportion of the Representatives are there chosen by freeholders. The greatest part are chosen by the Cities & boroughs, in many of which the qualification of suffrage is as low as it is in any one of the U. S. and it was in the boroughs & Cities rather than the Counties, that bribery most prevailed, & the influence of the Crown on elections was most dangerously exerted.[18]

[18] "Note to speech of J. M. in Convention of 1787, August 7^{th}.:

"As appointments for the General Government here contemplated will, in part, be made by the State Gov^{ts}, all the Citizens in States where the right of suffrage is not limited to the holders of property, will have an indirect share of representation in the General Government. But this does not satisfy the fundamental principle that men cannot be justly bound by laws in making which they have no part. Persons & property being both essential objects of Government, the most that either can claim, is such a structure of it as will leave a reasonable security for the other. And the most obvious provision, of this double character, seems to be that of confining to the holders of property the object deemed least secure in popular Gov^{ts} the right of suffrage for one of the two Legislative branches. This is not without example among us, as well as other constitutional modifications, favouring the influence of property in the Government. But the U. S. have not reached the stage of Society in which conflicting feelings of the Class with, and the Class without property, have the operation natural to them in Countries fully peopled. The most difficult of all political arrangements is that of so adjusting the claims of the two Classes as to give security to each and to promote the welfare of all. The federal principle,--which enlarges the sphere of power without departing from the elective basis of it and controuls in various ways the propensity in small republics to rash measures & the facility of forming & executing them, will be found the best expedient yet tried for solving the problem."--Madison's Note.

* * * * *

"Note to the speech of J. M. on the [7^{th}.] day of [August].

"These observations (in the speech of J. M. see debates in the Convention of 1787, on the [7^{th}.] day of [August]) do not convey the speaker's more full & matured view of the subject, which is subjoined. He felt too much at the time the example of Virginia.

"The right of suffrage is a fundamental Article in Republican Constitutions. The regulation of it is, at the same time, a task of peculiar delicacy. Allow the right exclusively to property, and the rights of persons may be oppressed. The feudal polity, alone sufficiently proves it. Extend it equally to all, and the rights of property, or the claims of justice, may be overruled by a majority without property or interested in measures of injustice. Of this abundant proof is afforded by other popular Gov^{ts} and is not without examples in our own, particularly in the laws impairing the obligation of contracts.

"In civilized communities, property as well as personal rights is an essential object of the laws, which encourage industry by securing the enjoyment of its fruits; that industry from which property results, & that enjoyment which consists not merely in its immediate use, but in its posthumous destination to objects of choice and of kindred affection.

"In a just & a free Government, therefore, the rights both of property & of persons ought to be effectually guarded. Will the former be so in case of a universal & equal suffrage? Will the latter be so in case of a suffrage confined to the holders of property?

"As the holders of property have at stake all the other rights common to those without property, they may be the more restrained from infringing, as well as the less tempted to infringe the rights of the latter. It is nevertheless certain, that there are various ways in which the rich may oppress the poor; in which property may oppress liberty; and that the world is filled with examples. It is necessary that the poor should have a defence against the danger.

"On the other hand, the danger to the holders of property cannot be disguised, if they be undefended against a majority without property. Bodies of men are not less swayed by interest than individuals, and are less controlled by the dread of reproach and the other motives felt by individuals. Hence the liability of the rights of property, and of the impartiality of laws affecting it, to be violated by Legislative majorities having an interest real or supposed in the injustice: Hence agrarian laws, and other leveling schemes: Hence the cancelling or evading of debts, and other violations of contracts. We must not shut our eyes to the nature of man, nor to the light of experience. Who would rely on a fair decision from three individuals if two had an interest in the case opposed to the rights of the third? Make the number as great as you please, the impartiality will not be increased; nor any further security against injustice be obtained, than what may result from the greater difficulty of uniting the wills of a greater number.

"In all Gov^{ts} there is a power which is capable of oppressive exercise. In Monarchies and Aristocracies oppression proceeds from a want of sympathy & responsibility in the Gov^t towards the people. In popular Governments the danger lies in an undue sympathy among individuals composing a majority, and a want of responsibility in the majority to the minority. The characteristic excellence of the political System of the U. S. arises from a distribution and organization of its powers, which at the same time that they secure the dependence of the Gov^t on the will of the nation, provides better guards than are found in any other popular Gov^t against interested combinations of a Majority against the rights of a Minority.

"The U. States have a precious advantage also in the actual distribution of property particularly the landed property; and in the universal hope of acquiring property. This latter peculiarity is among the happiest contrasts in their situation to that of the old world, where no anticipated change in this respect, can generally inspire a like sympathy with the rights of property. There may be at present, a Majority of the Nation, who are even freeholders, or the heirs or aspirants to Freeholds. And the day may not be very near when such will cease to make up a Majority of the community. But they cannot always so continue. With every admissible subdivision of the Arable lands, a populousness not greater than that of England or France will reduce the holders to a Minority. And whenever the majority shall be without landed or other equivalent property and without the means or hope of acquiring it, what is to secure the rights of property ag^{st} the danger from an equality & universality of suffrage, vesting compleat power over property in hands without a share in it: not to speak of a danger in the meantime from a dependence of an increasing number on the wealth of a few? In other Countries this dependence results in some from the relations between Landlords & Tenants in others both from that source & from the relations between wealthy capitalists and indigent labourers. In the U. S. the occurrence must happen from the last source; from the connection between the great Capitalists in Manufactures & Commerce and the numbers employed by them. Nor will accumulations of Capital for a certain time be precluded by our laws of descent & of distribution; Such being the enterprise inspired by free Institutions, that great wealth in the hands of individuals and associations may not be unfrequent. But it may be observed, that the opportunities may be diminished, and the permanency defeated by the equalizing tendency of our laws.

"No free Country has ever been without parties, which are a natural offspring of Freedom. An obvious and permanent division of every people is into the owners of the soil, and the other inhabitants. In a certain sense the country may be said to belong to the former. If each landholder has an exclusive property in his share, the Body of Landholders have an exclusive property in the whole. As the Soil becomes subdivided, and actually cultivated by the owners, this view of the subject derives force from the principle of natural law, which vests in individuals an exclusive right to the portions of ground with which he has incorporated his labour & improvements. Whatever may be the rights of others derived from their birth in the Country, from their interest in the highways & other parcels left open for common use, as well as in the national edifices and monuments; from their share in the public defence, and from their concurrent support of the Gov^t, it would seem unreasonable to extend the right so far as to give them when become the majority, a power of Legislation over the landed property without the consent of the proprietors. Some barrier ag^{st} the invasion of their rights would not be out of place in a just and provident System of Gov^t. The principle of such an arrangement has prevailed in all Gov^{ts} where peculiar privileges or interests held by a part were to be secured ag^{st} violation, and in the various associations where pecuniary or other property forms the stake. In the former case a defensive right has been allowed; and if the arrangement be wrong, it is not in the defense but in the kind of privilege to be defended. In the latter case, the shares of suffrage, allotted to individuals have been with acknowledged justice apportioned more or less to their respective interests in the Common Stock.

"These reflections suggest the expediency of such a modification of Gov^t as would give security to the part of the Society having most at stake and being most exposed to danger. Three modifications present themselves.

"1. Confining the right of suffrage to freeholders, & to such as hold an equivalent property, convertible of course into freeholds. The objection to this regulation is obvious. It violates the vital principle of free Gov^t that those who are to be bound by laws, ought to have a voice in making them. And the violation w^d be more strikingly unjust as the law makers become the minority. The regulation would be as unpropitious, also, as it would be unjust. It would engage the numerical & physical force in a constant struggle ag^{st} the public authority; unless kept down by a standing army fatal to all parties.

"2. Confining the right of suffrage for one Branch to the holders of property, and for the other Branch to those without property. This arrangement which w^d give a mutual defence, where there might be mutual danger of encroachment, has an aspect of equality & fairness. But it w^d not be in fact either equal or fair, because the rights to be defended would be unequal, being on one side those of property as well as of persons, and on the other those of persons only. The temptation also to encroach tho' in a certain degree mutual, w^d be felt more strongly on one side than on the other: It would be more likely to beget an abuse of the Legislative Negative in extorting concessions at the expence of property, than the reverse. The division of the State into two Classes, with distinct & independ^t Organs of power, and without any intermingled agency whatever, might lead to contests & antipathies not dissimilar to those between the Patricians & Plebeians at Rome.

"3. Confining the right of electing one Branch of the Legislature to freeholders, and admitting all others to a common right with holders of property in electing the other Branch. This w^d give a defensive power to holders of property, and to the class also without property when becoming a majority of electors, without depriving them in the meantime of a participation in the Public Councils. If the holders of property would thus have a two-fold share of representation, they w^d have at the same time a two-fold stake in it, the rights of property as well as of persons, the two-fold object of political Institutions. And if no exact & safe equilibrium can be introduced, it is more reasonable that a preponderating weight sh^d be allowed to the greater interest than to the lesser. Experience alone can decide how far the practice in this case would correspond with the Theory. Such a distribution of the right of suffrage was tried in N. York and has been abandoned whether from experienced evils, or party calculations, may possibly be a question. It is still on trial in N. Carolina, with what practical indications is not known. It is certain that the trial, to be satisfactory ought to be continued for no inconsiderable period; untill in fact the non-freeholders should be the majority.

"4. Should experience or public opinion require an equal & universal suffrage for each branch of the Gov^t such as prevails generally in the U. S., a resource favorable to the rights of the landed & other property, when its possessors become the minority, may be found in an enlargement of the Election Districts for one branch of the Legislature, and an extension of its period of service. Large districts are manifestly favorable to the election of persons of general respectability, and of probable attachment to the rights of property, over competitors depending on the personal solicitation practicable on a contracted theatre. And altho' an ambitious candidate, of personal distinction, might occasionally recommend himself to popular choice by espousing a popular though unjust object, it might rarely happen to many districts at the same time. The tendency of a longer period of service would be, to render the Body more stable in its policy, and more capable of stemming popular currents taking a wrong direction, till reason & justice could regain their ascendancy.

"5. Should even such a modification as the last be deemed inadmissible, and universal suffrage and very short periods of elections within contracted spheres, be required for each branch of the Gov^t, the security for the holders of property when the minority, can only be derived from the ordinary influence possessed by property, & the superior information incident to its holders; from the popular sense of justice enlightened & enlarged by a diffusive education; and from the difficulty of combining & effectuating unjust purposes throughout an extensive country; a difficulty essentially distinguishing the U. S. & even most of the individual States, from the small communities where a mistaken interest or contagious passion, could readily unite a majority of the whole under a factious leader, in trampling on the rights of the minor party.

"Under every view of the subject, it seems indispensable that the Mass of Citizens should not be without a voice, in making the laws which they are to obey, & in chusing the Magistrates who are to administer them, and if the only alternative be between an equal & universal right of suffrage for each branch of the Gov^t and a confinement of the entire right to a part of the Citizens, it is better that those having the greater interest at stake namely that of property & persons both, should be deprived of half their share in the Gov^t than, that those having the lesser interest, that of personal rights only, should be deprived of the whole."--Madison's Note.

Doc^r Franklin. It is of great consequence that we sh^d not depress the virtue & public spirit of our common people; of which they displayed a great deal during the war, and which contributed principally to the favorable issue of it. He related the honorable refusal of the American seamen who were carried in great numbers into the British Prisons during the war, to redeem themselves from misery or to seek their fortunes, by entering on board the Ships of the Enemies to their Country; contrasting their patriotism with a contemporary instance in which the British seamen made prisoners by the Americans, readily entered on the ships of the latter on being promised a share of the prizes that might be made out of their own Country. This proceeded he said from the different manner in which the common people were treated in America & G. Britain. He did not think that the elected had any right in any case to narrow the privileges of the electors. He quoted as arbitrary the British Statute setting forth the danger of tumultuous meetings, and under that pretext narrowing the right of suffrage to persons having freeholds of a certain value; observing that this Statute was soon followed by another under the succeeding Parliam^t subjecting the people who had no votes to peculiar labors & hardships. He was persuaded also that such a restriction as was proposed would give great uneasiness in the populous States. The sons of a substantial farmer, not being themselves freeholders, would not be pleased at being disfranchised, and there are a great many persons of that description.

M^r Mercer. The Constitution is objectionable in many points, but in none more than the present. He objected to the footing on which the qualification was put, but particularly to the mode of election by the people. The people can not know & judge of the characters of Candidates. The worse possible choice will be made. He quoted the case of the Senate in Virg^a as an example in point. The people in Towns can unite their votes in favor of one favorite; & by that means always prevail over the people of the Country, who being dispersed will scatter their votes among a variety of candidates.

M^r Rutlidge thought the idea of restraining the right of suffrage to the freeholders a very unadvised one. It would create division among the people & make enemies of all those who should be excluded.

On the question for striking out as moved by M^r Gov^r Morris, from the word "qualifications" to the end of the III article

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. not pres^t.

Adjourned

WEDNESDAY AUG^{ST} 8. IN CONVENTION

Art: IV. sect. 1.--M^r Mercer expressed his dislike of the whole plan, and his opinion that it never could succeed.

M^r Ghorum. he had never seen any inconveniency from allowing such as were not freeholders to vote, though it had long been tried. The elections in Phil^a, N. York & Boston where the Merchants & Mechanics vote are at least as good as those made by freeholders only. The case in England was not accurately stated yesterday (by M^r Madison). The Cities & large towns are not the seat of Crown influence & corruption. These prevail in the Boroughs, and not on account of the right which those who are not freeholders have to vote, but of the smallness of the number who vote. The people have been long accustomed to this right in various parts of America, and will never allow it to be abridged. We must consult their rooted prejudices if we expect their concurrence in our propositions.

M^r Mercer did not object so much to an election by the people at large including such as were not freeholders, as to their being left to make their choice without any guidance. He hinted that Candidates ought to be nominated by the State Legislatures.

On the question for agreeing to Art: IV--Sect, 1 it pass^d nem. con.

Art. IV. Sect. 2. taken up.

Col. Mason was for opening a wide door for emigrants; but did not chuse to let foreigners and adventurers make laws for us & govern us. Citizenship for three years was not enough for ensuring that local knowledge which ought to be possessed by the Representative. This was the principal ground of his objection to so short a term. It might also happen that a rich foreign Nation, for example Great Britain, might send over her tools who might bribe their way into the Legislature for insidious purposes. He moved that "seven" years instead of "three," be inserted.

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ded} the Motion, & on the question, all the States agreed to it except Connecticut.

M^r Sherman moved to strike out the word "resident" and insert "inhabitant," as less liable to misconstruction.

M^r Madison 2^{ded} the motion, both were vague, but the latter least so in common acceptation, and would not exclude persons absent occasionally for a considerable time on public or private business. Great disputes had been raised in Virg^a concerning the meaning of residence as a qualification of Representatives which were determined more according to the affection or dislike to the man in question, than to any fixt interpretation of the word.

M^r Wilson preferred "inhabitant."

M^r Gov^r Morris, was opposed to both and for requiring nothing more than a freehold. He quoted great disputes in N. York occasioned by these terms, which were decided by the arbitrary will of the majority. Such a regulation is not necessary. People rarely chuse a nonresident--It is improper as in the 1^{st} branch, the people at large, not the States, are represented.

M^r Rutlidge urged & moved, that a residence of 7 years sh^d be required in the State Wherein the Member sh^d be elected. An emigrant from N. England to S. C. or Georgia would know little of its affairs and could not be supposed to acquire a thorough knowledge in less time.

M^r Read reminded him that we were now forming a Nat^l Gov^t and such a regulation would correspond little with the idea that we were one people.

M^r Wilson. enforced the same consideration.

M^r Madison suggested the case of new States in the West, which could have perhaps no representation on that plan.

M^r Mercer. Such a regulation would present a greater alienship among the States than existed under the old federal system. It would interweave local prejudices & State distinctions in the very Constitution which is meant to cure them. He mentioned instances of violent disputes raised in Maryland concerning the term "residence."

M^r Elseworth thought seven years of residence was by far too long a term: but that some fixt term of previous residence would be proper. He thought one year would be sufficient, but seemed to have no objection to three years.

M^r Dickinson proposed that it should read "inhabitant actually resident for ---- years." This would render the meaning less indeterminate.

M^r Wilson. If a short term should be inserted in the blank, so strict an expression might be construed to exclude the members of the Legislature, who could not be said to be actual residents in their States whilst at the Seat of the Gen^l Government.

M^r Mercer. It would certainly exclude men, who had once been inhabitants, and returning from residence elsewhere to resettle in their original State; although a want of the necessary knowledge could not in such cases be presumed.

M^r Mason thought 7 years too long, but would never agree to part with the principle. It is a valuable principle. He thought it a defect in the plan that the Representatives would be too few to bring with them all the local knowledge necessary. If residence be not required, Rich men of neighbouring States, may employ with success the means of corruption in some particular district and thereby get into the public Councils after having failed in their own State. This is the practice in the boroughs of England.

On the question for postponing in order to consider M^r Dickinsons motion

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question for inserting "inhabitant" in place of "resident"--ag^d to nem. con.

M^r Elseworth & Col. Mason move to insert "one year" for previous inhabitancy.

M^r Williamson liked the Report as it stood. He thought "resident" a good eno' term. He was ag^{st} requiring any period of previous residence. New residents if elected will be most zealous to conform to the will of their constituents, as their conduct will be watched with a more jealous eye.

M^r Butler & M^r Rutlidge moved "three years" instead of "one year" for previous inhabitancy.

On the question for 3 years,

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question for "1 year"

N. H. no.--Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Art. IV. Sect. 2. as amended in manner preceding, was agreed to nem. con.

Art. IV. Sect. 3. taken up.

Gen^l Pinkney & M^r Pinkney moved that the number of Representatives allotted to S. Carol^a be "six." On the question,

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Delaware ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The 3. Sect of Art: IV, was then agreed to.

Art: IV. Sect. 4. taken up.

M^r Williamson moved to strike out "according to the provisions hereinafter made" and to insert the words "according to the rule hereafter to be provided for direct taxation."--See Art. VII. Sect. 3.

On the question for agreeing to M^r Williamson's amendment

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r King wished to know what influence the vote just passed was meant to have on the succeeding part of the Report, concerning the admission of Slaves into the rule of Representation. He could not reconcile his mind to the article if it was to prevent objections to the latter part. The admission of slaves was a most grating circumstance to his mind, & he believed would be so to a great part of the people of America. He had not made a strenuous opposition to it heretofore because he had hoped that this concession would have produced a readiness which had not been manifested, to strengthen the Gen^l Gov^t and to mark a full confidence in it. The Report under consideration had by the tenor of it, put an end to all those hopes. In two great points the hands of the Legislature were absolutely tied. The importation of slaves could not be prohibited--exports could not be taxed. Is this reasonable? What are the great objects of the Gen^l System? 1. defence ag^{st} foreign invasion. 2. ag^{st} internal sedition. Shall all the States then be bound to defend each; & shall each be at liberty to introduce a weakness which will render defence more difficult? Shall one part of the U. S. be bound to defend another part, and that other part be at liberty not only to increase its own danger, but to withhold the compensation for the burden? If slaves are to be imported shall not the exports produced by their labor, supply a revenue the better to enable the Gen^l Gov^a to defend their Masters? There was so much inequality & unreasonableness in all this, that the people of the Northern States could never be reconciled to it. No candid man could undertake to justify it to them. He had hoped that some accommodation w^d have taken place on this subject; that at least a time w^d have been limited for the importation of slaves. He never could agree to let them be imported without limitation & then be represented in the Nat^l Legislature. Indeed he could so little persuade himself of the rectitude of such a practice, that he was not sure he could assent to it under any circumstances. At all events, either slaves should not be represented, or exports should be taxable.

M^r Sherman regarded the slave trade as iniquitous; but the point of representation having been settled after much difficulty & deliberation, he did not think himself bound to make opposition; especially as the present article as amended did not preclude any arrangement whatever on that point in another place of the Report.

M^r Madison objected to 1 for every 40.000 inhabitants as a perpetual rule. The future increase of population if the Union sh^d be permanent, will render the number of Representatives excessive.

M^r Ghorum. It is not to be supposed that the Gov^t will last so long as to produce this effect. Can it be supposed that this vast Country including the Western territory will 150 years hence remain one nation?

M^r Elseworth. If the Gov^t should continue so long, alterations may be made in the Constitution in the manner proposed in a subsequent article.

M^r Sherman & M^r Madison moved to insert the words "not exceeding," before the words "1 for every 40.000." which was agreed to nem. con.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to insert "free" before the word inhabitants. Much he said would depend on this point. He never would concur in upholding domestic slavery. It was a nefarious institution. It was the curse of heaven on the States where it prevailed. Compare the free regions of the Middle States, where a rich & noble cultivation marks the prosperity & happiness of the people, with the misery & poverty which overspread the barren wastes of V^a Mary^d & the other States having slaves. Travel thro' y^e whole Continent & you behold the prospect continually varying with the appearance & disappearance of slavery. The moment you leave y^e E. States & enter N. York, the effects of the institution become visible, passing thro' the Jerseys & entering P^a every criterion of superior improvement witnesses the change. Proceed southw^{dly}. & every step you take thro' y^e great regions of slaves presents a desert increasing, with y^e increasing [word is illegible] proportion of these wretched beings. Upon what principle is it that the slaves shall be computed in the representation? Are they men? Then make them Citizens and let them vote. Are they property? Why then is no other property included? The Houses in this city (Philad^a) are worth more than all the wretched Slaves which cover the rice swamps of South Carolina. The admission of slaves into the Representation when fairly explained comes to this: that the inhabitant of Georgia and S. C. who goes to the Coast of Africa, and in defiance of the most sacred laws of humanity tears away his fellow creatures from their dearest connections & damns them to the most cruel bondages, shall have more votes in a Gov^t instituted for protection of the rights of mankind, than the Citizen of P^a or N. Jersey who views with a laudable horror, so nefarious a practice. He would add that Domestic slavery is the most prominent feature in the aristocratic countenance of the proposed Constitution. The vassalage of the poor has ever been the favorite offspring of Aristocracy. And What is the proposed compensation to the Northern States for a sacrifice of every principle of right, of every impulse of humanity. They are to bind themselves to march their militia for the defence of the S. States; for their defence ag^{st} those very slaves of whom they complain. They must supply vessels & seamen in case of foreign Attack. The Legislature will have indefinite power to tax them by excises, and duties on imports: both of which will fall heavier on them than on the Southern inhabitants; for the bohae tea used by a Northern freeman, will pay more tax than the whole consumption of the miserable slave, which consists of nothing more than his physical subsistence and the rag that covers his nakedness. On the other side the Southern States are not to be restrained from importing fresh supplies of wretched Africans, at once to increase the danger of attack, and the difficulty of defence; nay they are to be encouraged to it by an assurance of having their votes in the Nat^l Gov^t increased in proportion, and are at the same time to have their exports & their slaves exempt from all contributions for the public service. Let it not be said that direct taxation is to be proportioned to representation. It is idle to suppose that the Gen^l Gov^t can stretch its hand directly into the pockets of the people scattered over so vast a Country. They can only do it through the medium of exports imports & excises. For What then are all the sacrifices to be made? He would sooner submit himself to a tax for paying for all the negroes in the U. States, than saddle posterity with such a Constitution.

M^r Dayton 2^{ded} the motion. He did it he said that his sentiments on the subject might appear whatever might be the fate of the amendment.

M^r Sherman, did not regard the admission of the Negroes into the ratio of representation, as liable to such insuperable objections. It was the freemen of the South^n States who were in fact to be represented according to the taxes paid by them, and the Negroes are only included in the Estimate of the taxes. This was his idea of the matter.

M^r Pinkney, considered the fisheries & the Western frontier as more burthensome to the U. S. than the slaves. He thought this could be demonstrated if the occasion were a proper one.

M^r Wilson, thought the motion premature. An agreement to the clause would be no bar to the object of it.

Question On motion to insert "free" before "inhabitants,"

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the suggestion of M^r Dickinson the words, "provided that each State shall have one representative at least,"--were added nem. con.

Art. IV. Sect. 4. as amended was agreed to con. nem.

Art. IV. Sect. 5. taken up.

M^r Pinkney moved to strike out Sect. 5. As giving no peculiar advantage to the House of Representatives, and as clogging the Gov^t. If the Senate can be trusted with the many great powers proposed, it surely may be trusted with that of originating money bills.

M^r Ghorum. was ag^{st} allowing the Senate to originate; but only to amend.

M^r Gov^r Morris. It is particularly proper that the Senate sh^d have the right of originating money bills. They will sit constantly, will consist of a smaller number, and will be able to prepare such bills with due correctness; and so as to prevent delay of business in the other House.

Col. Mason was unwilling to travel over this ground again. To strike out the Section, was to unhinge the compromise of which it made a part. The duration of the Senate made it improper. He does not object to that duration. On the Contrary he approved of it. But joined with the smallness of the number, it was an argument against adding this to the other great powers vested in that body. His idea of an Aristocracy was that it was the govern^t of the few over the many. An aristocratic body, like the screw in mechanics, work^g its way by slow degrees, and holding fast whatever it gains, should ever be suspected of an encroaching tendency. The purse strings should never be put into its hands.

M^r Mercer, considered the exclusive power of originating Money bills as so great an advantage, that it rendered the equality of votes in the Senate ideal & of no consequence.

M^r Butler was for adhering to the principle which had been settled.

M^r Wilson was opposed to it on its merits without regard to the compromise.

M^r Elseworth did not think the clause of any consequence, but as it was thought of consequence by some members from the larger States, he was willing it should stand.

M^r Madison was for striking it out; considering it as of no advantage to the large States as fettering the Gov^t and as a source of injurious altercations between the two Houses.

On the question for striking out "Sect. 5, Art. IV".

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Adj^d.

THURSDAY, AUG^{ST} 9. IN CONVENTION

Art: IV. Sect. 6. M^r Randolph expressed his dissatisfaction at the disagreement yesterday to Sect. 5. concerning money bills, as endangering the success of the plan, and extremely objectionable in itself; and gave notice that he should move for a reconsideration of the vote.

M^r Williamson said he had formed a like intention.

M^r Wilson, gave notice that he sh^d move to reconsider the vote, requiring seven instead of three years of Citizenship as a qualification of candidates for the House of Representatives.

Art. IV. Sec. 6. & 7. Agreed to nem. con.

Art. V. Sect. 1. taken up.

M^r Wilson objected to vacancies in the Senate being supplied by the Executives of the States. It was unnecessary as the Legislatures will meet so frequently. It removes the appointment too far from the people; the Executives in most of the States being elected by the Legislatures. As he had always thought the appointment of the Executives by the Legislative department wrong; so it was still more so that the Executive should elect into the Legislative department.

M^r Randolph thought it necessary in order to prevent inconvenient chasms in the Senate. In some States the Legislatures meet but once a year. As the Senate will have more power & consist of a smaller number than the other House, vacancies there will be of more consequence. The Executives might be safely trusted he thought with the appointment for so short a time.

M^r Elseworth. It is only said that the Executive may supply vacancies. When the Legislative meeting happens to be near, the power will not be exerted. As there will be but two members from a State vacancies may be of great moment.

M^r Williamson. Senators may resign or not accept. This provision is therefore absolutely necessary.

On the question for striking out "vacancies shall be supplied by the Executives"

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Williamson moved to insert after "vacancies shall be supplied by the Executives," the following words "unless other provision shall be made by the Legislature" (of the State).

M^r Elseworth. He was willing to trust the Legislature, or the Executive of a State, but not to give the former a discretion to refer appointments for the Senate to whom they pleased.

Question on M^r Williamson's motion

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison in order to prevent doubts whether resignations could be made by Senators, or whether they could refuse to accept, moved to strike out the words after "vacancies," & insert the words "happening by refusals to accept, resignations or otherwise, may be supplied by the Legislature of the State in the representation of which such vacancies shall happen, or by the Executive thereof until the next meeting of the Legislature."

M^r Gov^r Morris this is absolutely necessary, otherwise, as members chosen into the Senate are disqualified from being appointed to any office by Sect. 9. of this art: it will be in the power of a Legislature by appointing a man a Senator ag^{st} his consent, to deprive the U. S. of his services.

The motion of M^r Madison was agreed to nem. con.

M^r Randolph called for division of the Section, so as to leave a distinct question on the last words "each member shall have one vote." He wished this last sentence to be postponed until the reconsideration should have taken place on Sect. 5. Art. IV. concerning money bills. If that section should not be reinstated his plan would be to vary the representation in the Senate.

M^r Strong concurred in M^r Randolph's ideas on this point.

M^r Read did not consider the section as to money bills of any advantage to the larger States and had voted for striking it out as being viewed in the same light by the larger States. If it was considered by them as of any value, and as a condition of the equality of votes in the Senate, he had no objection to its being re-instated.

M^r Wilson--M^r Elseworth & M^r Madison urged that it was of no advantage to the larger States, and that it might be a dangerous source of contention between the two Houses. All the principal powers of the Nat^l Legislature had some relation to money.

Doc^r Franklin, considered the two clauses, the originating of money bills, and the equality of votes in the Senate, as essentially connected by the compromise which had been agreed to.

Col. Mason said this was not the time for discussing this point. When the originating of money bills shall be reconsidered, he thought it could be demonstrated that it was of essential importance to restrain the right to the House of Representatives the immediate choice of the people.

M^r Williamson. The State of N. C. had agreed to an equality in the Senate, merely in consideration that money bills should be confined to the other House: and he was surprised to see the smaller States forsaking the condition on which they had received their equality.

Question on the section 1. down to the last sentence

N. H. ay. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a[19] no. Del. ay. M^d ay. Virg^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. div^d. Geo. ay.

[19] "In the printed Journal Pennsylvania ay."--Madison's Note.

M^r Randolph moved that the last sentence "each member shall have one vote," be postponed.

It was observed that this could not be necessary; as in case the sanction as to originating money bills should not be reinstated, and a revision of the Constitution should ensue, it w^d still be proper that the members should vote per Capita. A postponement of the preceding sentence allowing to each State 2 members w^d have been more proper.

M^r Mason, did not mean to propose a change of this mode of voting per capita in any event. But as there might be other modes proposed, he saw no impropriety in postponing the sentence. Each State may have two members, and yet may have unequal votes. He said that unless the exclusive originating of money bills should be restored to the House of Representatives, he should, not from obstinacy but duty and conscience, oppose throughout the equality of Representation in the Senate.

M^r Gov^r Morris. Such declarations were he supposed, addressed to the smaller States in order to alarm them for their equality in the Senate, and induce them ag^{st} their judgments, to concur in restoring the section concerning money bills. He would declare in his turn that as he saw no prospect of amending the Constitution of the Senate & considered the section relating to money bills as intrinsically bad, he would adhere to the section establishing the equality at all events.

M^r Wilson. It seems to have been supposed by some that the section concerning money bills is desirable to the large States. The fact was that two of those States (P^a & V^a) had uniformly voted ag^{st} it without reference to any other part of the system.

M^r Randolph, urged as Col. Mason had done that the sentence under consideration was connected with that relating to Money bills, and might possibly be affected by the result of the motion for reconsidering the latter. That the postponement was therefore not improper.

Question for postponing "each member shall have one vote,"

N. H. div^d. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The words were then agreed to as part of the section.

M^r Randolph then gave notice that he should move to reconsider this whole Sect: 1. Art. V. as connected with the 5. Sect. Art. IV. as to which he had already given such notice.

Art. V. Sect. 2^d taken up.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to insert after the words, "immediately after," the following "they shall be assembled in consequence of," which was agreed to nem. con. as was then the whole sect. 2.

Art: V. Sect. 3. taken up.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to insert 14 instead of 4 years citizenship as a qualification for Senators: urging the danger of admitting strangers into our public Councils. M^r Pinkney 2^d him.

M^r Elseworth, was opposed to the motion as discouraging meritorious aliens from emigrating to this Country.

M^r Pinkney. As the Senate is to have the power of making treaties & managing our foreign affairs, there is peculiar danger and impropriety in opening its door to those who have foreign attachments. He quoted the jealousy of the Athenians on this subject who made it death for any stranger to intrude his voice into their Legislative proceedings.

Col. Mason highly approved of the policy of the motion. Were it not that many not natives of this Country had acquired great merit during the revolution, he should be for restraining the eligibility into the Senate, to natives.

M^r Madison was not averse to some restrictions on this subject; but could never agree to the proposed amendment. He thought any restriction however in the Constitution unnecessary, and improper, unnecessary; because the Nat^l Legisl^{re} is to have the right of regulating naturalization, and can by virtue thereof fix different periods of residence or conditions of enjoying different privileges of Citizenship: Improper; because it will give a tincture of illiberality to the Constitution: because it will put it out of the power of the Nat^l Legislature even by special acts of naturalization to confer the full rank of Citizens on meritorious strangers & because it will discourage the most desirable class of people from emigrating to the U. S. Should the proposed Constitution have the intended effect of giving stability & reputation to our Gov^{ts} great numbers of respectable Europeans; men who love liberty and wish to partake its blessings, will be ready to transfer their fortunes hither. All such would feel the mortification of being marked with suspicious incapacitations though they s^d not covet the public honors. He was not apprehensive that any dangerous number of strangers would be appointed by the State Legislatures, if they were left at liberty to do so: nor that foreign powers would make use of strangers as instruments for their purposes. Their bribes would be expended on men whose circumstances would rather stifle than excite jealousy & watchfulness in the public.

M^r Butler was decidedly opposed to the admission of foreigners without a long residence in the Country. They bring with them, not only attachments to other Countries; but ideas of Gov^t so distinct from ours that in every point of view they are dangerous. He acknowledged that if he himself had been called into public life within a short time after his coming to America, his foreign habits opinions & attachments would have rendered him an improper agent in public affairs. He mentioned the great strictness observed in Great Britain on this subject.

Doc^r Franklin was not against a reasonable time, but should be very sorry to see any thing like illiberality inserted in the Constitution. The people in Europe are friendly to this Country. Even in the Country with which we have been lately at war, we have now & had during the war, a great many friends not only among the people at large but in both houses of Parliament. In every other Country in Europe all the people are our friends. We found in the course of the Revolution, that many strangers served us faithfully, and that many natives took part ag^{st} their Country. When foreigners after looking about for some other Country in which they can obtain more happiness, give a preference to ours, it is a proof of attachment which ought to excite our confidence & affection.

M^r Randolph did not know but it might be problematical whether emigrations to this Country were on the whole useful or not: but he could never agree to the motion for disabling them for 14 years to participate in the public honours. He reminded the Convention of the language held by our patriots during the Revolution, and the principles laid down in all our American Constitutions. Many foreigners may have fixed their fortunes among us under the faith of these invitations. All persons under this description, with all others who would be affected by such a regulation, would enlist themselves under the banners of hostility to the proposed System. He would go as far as seven years, but no further.

M^r Wilson said he rose with feelings which were perhaps peculiar; mentioning the circumstance of his not being a native, and the possibility, if the ideas of some gentlemen should be pursued, of his being incapacitated from holding a place under the very Constitution, which he had shared in the trust of making. He remarked the illiberal complexion which the motion would give to the System & the effect which a good system would have in inviting meritorious foreigners among us, and the discouragement & mortification they must feel from the degrading discrimination now proposed. He had himself experienced this mortification. On his removal into Maryland, he found himself, from defect of residence, under certain legal incapacities which never ceased to produce chagrin, though he assuredly did not desire & would not have accepted the offices to which they related. To be appointed to a place may be matter of indifference. To be incapable of being appointed, is a circumstance grating and mortifying.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The lesson we are taught is that we should be governed as much by our reason, and as little by our feelings as possible. What is the language of Reason on this subject? That we should not be polite at the expence of prudence. There was a moderation in all things. It is said that some tribes of Indians, carried their hospitality so far as to offer to strangers their wives & daughters. Was this a proper model for us? He would admit them to his house, he would invite them to his table, would provide for them comfortable lodgings; but would not carry the complaisance so far as, to bed them with his wife. He would let them worship at the same altar, but did not choose to make Priests of them. He ran over the privileges which emigrants would enjoy among us, though they should be deprived of that of being eligible to the great offices of Government; observing that they exceeded the privileges allowed to foreigners in any part of the world; and that as every Society from a great nation down to a club had the right of declaring the conditions on which new members should be admitted, there could be no room for complaint. As to those philosophical gentlemen, those Citizens of the World as they called themselves, He owned he did not wish to see any of them in our public Councils. He would not trust them. The men who can shake off their attachments to their own Country can never love any other. These attachments are the wholesome prejudices which uphold all Governments. Admit a Frenchman into your Senate, and he will study to increase the commerce of France: an Englishman, he will feel an equal bias in favor of that of England. It has been said that The Legislatures will not chuse foreigners, at least improper ones. There was no knowing what Legislatures would do. Some appointments made by them, proved that every thing ought to be apprehended from the cabals practised on such occasions. He mentioned the case of a foreigner who left this State in disgrace, and worked himself into an appointment from another to Congress.

Question on the motion of M^r Gov^r Morris to insert 14 in place of 4 years

N.H. ay. Mass. no. C^t no. N.J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On 13 years, moved by M^r Gov^r Morris

N. H. ay. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On 10 years moved by Gen^l Pinkney

N. H. ay. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

D^r Franklin reminded the Convention that it did not follow from an omission to insert the restriction in the Constitution that the persons in question w^d be actually chosen into the Legislature.

M^r Rutlidge. 7 years of Citizenship have been required for the House of Representatives. Surely a longer time is requisite for the Senate, which will have more power.

M^r Williamson. It is more necessary to guard the Senate in this case than the other House. Bribery & cabal can be more easily practised in the choice of the Senate which is to be made by the Legislatures composed of a few men, than of the House of Represent^s who will be chosen by the people.

M^r Randolph will agree to 9 years with the expectation that it will be reduced to seven if M^r Wilson's motion to reconsider the vote fixing 7 years for the House of Representatives should produce a reduction of that period.

On a question for 9 years

N. H. ay. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. div^d. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The term "Resident" was struck out, & "inhabitant" inserted nem. con.

Art. V. Sect. 3. as amended agreed to nem. con.

Sect. 4. agreed to nem. con.

Article VI. Sect. 1. taken up.

M^r Madison & M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out "each House" & to insert "the House of Representatives;" the right of the Legislatures to regulate the times & places &c. in the election of Senators being involved in the right of appointing them, which was disagreed to.

Division of the question being called, it was taken on the first part down to "but their provisions concerning &c."

The first part was agreed to nem. con.

M^r Pinkney & M^r Rutlidge moved to strike out the remaining part viz but their provisions concerning them may at any time be altered by the Legislature of the United States. The States they contended could & must be relied on in such cases.

M^r Ghorum. It would be as improper take this power from the Nat^l Legislature, as to Restrain the British Parliament from regulating the circumstances of elections, leaving this business to the Counties themselves--

M^r Madison.[20] The necessity of a Gen^l Gov^t supposes that the State Legislatures will sometimes fail or refuse to consult the common interest at the expence of their local conveniency or prejudices. The policy of referring the appointment of the House of Representatives to the people and not to the Legislatures of the States, supposes that the result will be somewhat influenced by the mode. This view of the question seems to decide that the Legislatures of the States ought not to have the uncontrouled right of regulating the times places & manner of holding elections. These were words of great latitude. It was impossible to foresee all the abuses that might be made of the discretionary power. Whether the electors should vote by ballot or viva voce, should assemble at this place or that place; should be divided into districts or all meet at one place, sh^d all vote for all the representatives; or all in a district vote for a number allotted to the district; these & many other points would depend on the Legislatures, and might materially affect the appointments. Whenever the State Legislatures had a favorite measure to carry, they would take care so to mould their regulations as to favor the candidates they wished to succeed. Besides, the inequality of the Representation in the Legislatures of particular States, would produce a like inequality in their representation in the Nat^l Legislature, as it was presumable that the Counties having the power in the former case would secure it to themselves in the latter. What danger could there be in giving a controuling power to the Nat^l Legislature? Of whom was it to consist? 1. of a Senate to be chosen by the State Legislatures. If the latter therefore could be trusted, their representatives could not be dangerous. 2. of Representatives elected by the same people who elect the State Legislatures; Surely then if confidence is due to the latter, it must be due to the former. It seemed as improper in principle, though it might be less inconvenient in practice, to give to the State Legislatures this great authority over the election of the Representatives of the people in the Gen^l Legislature, as it would be to give to the latter a like power over the election of their Representatives in the State Legislatures.

[20] Madison wrote to Jefferson, July 18:

"I have taken lengthy notes of everything that has yet passed, and mean to go on with the drudgery, if no indisposition obliges me to discontinue it. It is not possible to form any judgment of the future duration of the Session. I am led by sundry circumstances to guess that the residue of the work will not be very quickly despatched. The public mind is very impatient for ye event, and various reports are circulating which tend to inflame curiosity. I do not learn however that any discontent is expressed at the concealment; and have little doubt that the people will be as ready to receive as we shall be able to propose, a Government that will secure their liberties & happiness."--Mad. MSS.

M^r King. If this power be not given to the Nat^l Legislature, their right of judging of the returns of their members may be frustrated. No probability has been suggested of its being abused by them. Altho this scheme of erecting the Gen^l Gov^t on the authority of the State Legislatures has been fatal to the federal establishment, it would seem as if many gentlemen, still foster the dangerous idea.

M^r Gov^r Morris observed that the States might make false returns and then make no provisions for new elections.

M^r Sherman did not know but it might be best to retain the clause, though he had himself sufficient confidence in the State Legislatures. The motion of M^r P. & M^r R. did not prevail.

The word "respectively" was inserted after the word "State."

On the motion of M^r Read the word "their" was struck out, & "regulations in such cases" inserted in place of "provisions concerning them" the clause then reading--"but regulations in each of the foregoing cases may at any time, be made or altered by the Legislature of the U. S." This was meant to give the Nat^l Legislature a power not only to alter the provisions of the States, but to make regulations in case the States should fail or refuse altogether.

Art. VI. Sect. 1. as thus amended was agreed to nem. con.

Adjourned.

FRIDAY AUG^{ST} 10. IN CONVENTION

Art. VI. Sect. 2. taken up.

M^r Pinkney. The Committee as he had conceived were instructed to report the proper qualifications of property for the members of the Nat^l Legislature; instead of which they have referred the task to the Nat^l Legislature itself. Should it be left on this footing, the first Legislature will meet without any particular qualifications of property; and if it should happen to consist of rich men they might fix such qualifications as may be too favorable to the rich; if of poor men, an opposite extreme might be run into. He was opposed to the establishment of an undue aristocratic influence in the Constitution but he thought it essential that the members of the Legislature, the Executive, and the Judges, should be possessed of competent property to make them independent & respectable. It was prudent when such great powers were to be trusted to connect the tie of property with that of reputation in securing a faithful administration. The Legislature would have the fate of the Nation put into their hands. The President would also have a very great influence on it. The Judges would have not only important causes between Citizen & Citizen but also where foreigners are concerned. They will even be the Umpires between the U. States and individual States as well as between one State & another. Were he to fix the quantum of property which should be required, he should not think of less than one hundred thousand dollars for the President, half of that sum for each of the Judges, and in like proportion for the members of the Nat^l Legislature. He would however leave the sums blank. His motion was that the President of the U. S. the Judges, and members of the Legislature should be required to swear that they were respectively possessed of a cleared unincumbered Estate to the amount of ---- in the case of the President &c &c.

M^r Rutlidge seconded the motion, observing that the Committee had reported no qualifications because they could not agree on any among themselves, being embarrassed by the danger on one side of displeasing the people by making them high, and on the other of rendering them nugatory by making them low.

M^r Elseworth. The different circumstances of different parts of the U. S. and the probable difference between the present and future circumstances of the whole, render it improper to have either uniform or fixed qualifications. Make them so high as to be useful in the S. States, and they will be inapplicable to the E. States. Suit them to the latter, and they will serve no purpose in the former. In like manner what may be accommodated to the existing State of things among us, may be very inconvenient in some future state of them. He thought for these reasons that it was better to leave this matter to the Legislative discretion than to attempt a provision for it in the Constitution.

Doct^r Franklin expressed his dislike of every thing that tended to debase the spirit of the common people. If honesty was often the companion of wealth, and if poverty was exposed to peculiar temptation, it was not less true that the possession of property increased the desire of more property. Some of the greatest rogues he was ever acquainted with, were the richest rogues. We should remember the character which the Scripture requires in Rulers, that they should be men hating covetousness. This Constitution will be much read and attended to in Europe, and if it should betray a great partiality to the rich will not only hurt us in the esteem of the most liberal and enlightened men there, but discourage the common people from removing to this Country.

The Motion of M^r Pinkney was rejected by so general a no, that the States were not called.

M^r Madison was opposed to the Section as vesting an improper & dangerous power in the Legislature. The qualifications of electors and elected were fundamental articles in a Republican Gov^t and ought to be fixed by the Constitution. If the Legislature could regulate those of either, it can by degrees subvert the Constitution. A Republic may be converted into an aristocracy or oligarchy as well by limiting the number capable of being elected, as the number authorized to elect. In all cases where the representatives of the people will have a personal interest distinct from that of their Constituents, there was the same reason for being jealous of them, as there was for relying on them with full confidence, when they had a common interest. This was one of the former cases. It was as improper as to allow them to fix their own wages, or their own privileges. It was a power also which might be made subservient to the views of one faction ag^{st} another. Qualifications founded on artificial distinctions may be devised, by the stronger in order to keep out partizans of a weaker faction.

M^r Elseworth, admitted that the power was not unexceptionable; but he could not view it as dangerous. Such a power with regard to the electors would be dangerous because it would be much more liable to abuse.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out "with regard to property" in order to leave the Legislature entirely at large.

M^r Williamson. This would surely never be admitted. Should a majority of the Legislature be composed of any particular description of men, of lawyers for example, which is no improbable supposition, the future elections might be secured to their own body.

M^r Madison observed that the British Parliam^t possessed the power of regulating the qualifications both of the electors, and the elected; and the abuse they had made of it was a lesson worthy of our attention. They had made the changes in both cases subservient to their own views, or to the views of political or Religious parties.

Question on the motion to strike out with regard to property

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del.[21] no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

[21] In the printed Journal Delaware did not vote--Madison's Note.

M^r Rutlidge was opposed to leaving the power to the Legislature--He proposed that the qualifications should be the same as for members of the State Legislatures.

M^r Wilson thought it would be best on the whole to let the Section go out. A uniform rule would probably never be fixed by the Legislature, and this particular power would constructively exclude every other power of regulating qualifications.

On the question for agreeing to Art. VI. Sect. 2^d

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On motion of M^r Wilson to reconsider Art: IV. Sect. 2; so as to restore 3 in place of seven years of citizenship as a qualification for being elected into the House of Represent^s.

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Monday next was then assigned for the reconsideration; all the States being ay. except Mass^{ts}. & Georgia.

Art: VI. Sect. 3. taken up.

M^r Ghorum contended that less than a majority in each House should be made a Quorum, otherwise great delay might happen in business, and great inconvenience from the future increase of numbers.

M^r Mercer was also for less than a majority. So great a number will put it in the power of a few by seceding at a critical moment to introduce convulsions, and endanger the Governm^t. Examples of secession have already happened in some of the States. He was for leaving it to the Legislature to fix the Quorum, as in Great Britain, where the requisite number is small & no inconveniency has been experienced.

Col. Mason. This is a valuable & necessary part of the plan. In this extended Country, embracing so great a diversity of interests, it would be dangerous to the distant parts to allow a small number of members of the two Houses to make laws. The Central States could always take care to be on the Spot and by meeting earlier than the distant ones, or wearying their patience, and outstaying them, could carry such measures as they pleased. He admitted that inconveniences might spring from the secession of a small number; But he had also known good produced by an apprehension, of it. He had known a paper emission prevented by that cause in Virginia. He thought the Constitution as now moulded was founded on sound principles, and was disposed to put into it extensive powers. At the same time he wished to guard ag^{st} abuses as much as possible. If the Legislature should be able to reduce the number at all, it might reduce it as low as it pleased & the U. States might be governed by a Juncto--A majority of the number which had been agreed on, was so few that he feared it would be made an objection ag^{st} the plan.

M^r King admitted there might be some danger of giving an advantage to the Central States; but he was of opinion that the public inconveniency on the other side was more to be dreaded.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to fix the quorum at 33 members in the H. of Rep^s & 14 in the Senate. This is a majority of the present number, and will be a bar to the Legislature: fix the number low and they will generally attend knowing that advantage may be taken of their absence, the Secession of a small number ought not to be suffered to break a quorum. Such events in the States may have been of little consequence. In the national Councils they may be fatal. Besides other mischiefs, if a few can break up a quorum, they may seize a moment when a particular part of the Continent may be in need of immediate aid, to extort, by threatening a secession, some unjust & selfish measure.

M^r Mercer 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r King said he had just prepared a motion which instead of fixing the numbers proposed by M^r Gov^r Morris as Quorums, made those the lowest numbers, leaving the Legislature at liberty to increase them or not. He thought the future increase of members would render a majority of the whole extremely cumbersome.

M^r Mercer agreed to substitute M^r King's motion in place of M^r Morris's.

M^r Elseworth was opposed to it. It would be a pleasing ground of confidence to the people that no law or burden could be imposed on them by a few men. He reminded the movers that the Constitution proposed to give such a discretion with regard to the number of Representatives that a very inconvenient number was not to be apprehended. The inconveniency of secessions may be guarded ag^{st} by giving to each House an authority to require the attendance of absent members.

M^r Wilson concurred in the sentiments of M^r Elseworth.

M^r Gerry seemed to think that some further precautions than merely fixing the quorum might be necessary. He observed that as 17 w^d be a majority of a quorum of 33, and 8 of 14, questions might by possibility be carried in the H. of Rep^s by 2 large States, and in the Senate by the same States with the aid of two small ones.--He proposed that the number for a quorum in the H. of Rep^s should not exceed 50, nor be less than 33, leaving the intermediate discretion to the Legislature.

M^r King. As the quorum could not be altered with^t the concurrence of the President by less than 2/3 of each House, he thought there could be no danger in trusting the Legislature.

M^r Carrol. This would be no security ag^{st} a continuance of the quorums at 33 & 14. when they ought to be increased.

On question on M^r King's motion "that not less than 33 in the H. of Rep^s nor less than 14 in the Senate sh^d constitute a Quorum which may be increased by a law, on additions of the members in either House.

N. H. no. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Randolph & M^r Madison moved to add to the end of Art. VI. Sect. 3, "and may be authorized to compel the attendance of absent members in such manner & under such penalties as each House may provide." Agreed to by all except Pen^a which was divided.

Art. VI. Sect. 3. agreed to as amended nem. con.

Sect. 4. } Agreed to nem. con. Sect. 5. }

M^r Madison observed that the right of expulsion (Art. VI. Sect. 6.) was too important to be exercised by a bare majority of a quorum: and in emergencies of faction might be dangerously abused. He moved that, "with the concurrence of 2/3," might be inserted between may & expel.

M^r Randolph & M^r Mason approved the idea.

M^r Gov^r Morris. This power may be safely trusted to a majority. To require more may produce abuses on the side of the minority. A few men from factious motives may keep in a member who ought to be expelled.

M^r Carrol thought that the concurrence of 2/3 at least ought to be required.

On the question requiring 2/3 in cases of expelling a member.

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a div^d. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Art. VI. Sect. 6. as thus amended agreed to nem. con.

Art: VI. Sect. 7. taken up.

M^r Gov^r Morris urged that if the yeas & nays were proper at all any individual ought to be authorized to call for them; and moved an amendment to that effect.--The small States may otherwise be under a disadvantage, and find it difficult to get a concurrence of 1/5.

M^r Randolph 2^{ded} y^e motion.

M^r Sherman had rather strike out the yeas & nays altogether. They never have done any good, and have done much mischief. They are not proper as the reasons governing the voter never appear along with them.

M^r Elseworth was of the same opinion.

Col. Mason liked the Section as it stood, it was a middle way between two extremes.

M^r Ghorum was opposed to the motion for allowing a single member to call the yeas & nays, and recited the abuses of it in Mass^{ts}. 1 in stuffing the journals with them on frivolous occasions. 2 in misleading the people who never know the reasons determing the votes.

The motion for allowing a single member to call the yeas & nays was disag^d to nem. con.

M^r Carrol. & M^r Randolph moved to strike out the words, "each House" and to insert the words, "the House of Representatives" in Sect. 7. Art. 6. and to add to the section the words "and any member of the Senate shall be at liberty to enter his dissent."

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Wilson observed that if the minority were to have a right to enter their votes & reasons, the other side would have a right to complain, if it were not extended to them: & to allow it to both, would fill the Journals, like the records of a Court, with replications, rejoinders &c.

Question on M^r Carrol's motion to allow a member to enter his dissent

N. H. no. Mass. no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry moved to strike out the words "when it shall be acting in its legislative capacity" in order to extend the provision to the Senate when exercising its peculiar authorities and to insert "except such parts thereof as in their judgment require secrecy" after the words "publish them."--(It was thought by others that provision should be made with respect to these when that part came under consideration which proposed to vest those additional authorities in the Senate.)

On this question for striking out the words "when acting in its legislative capacity"

N. H. div^d. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Adjourned.

SATURDAY AUG^{ST} 11 IN CONVENTION

M^r Madison & M^r Rutlidge moved "that each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings, & shall publish the same from time to time; except such part of the proceedings of the Senate, when acting not in its Legislative capacity as may be judged by that House to require secrecy."

M^r Mercer. This implies that other powers than legislative will be given to the Senate which he hoped would not be given.

M^r Madison & M^r R's motion was disag^d to by all the States except Virg^a.

M^r Gerry & M^r Sherman moved to insert after the words "publish them" the following "except such as relate to treaties & military operations." Their object was to give each House a discretion in such cases.--On this question

N. H. no. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Elseworth. As the clause is objectionable in so many shapes, it may as well be struck out altogether. The Legislature will not fail to publish their proceedings from time to time. The people will call for it if it should be improperly omitted.

M^r Wilson thought the expunging of the clause would be very improper. The people have a right to know what their Agents are doing or have done, and it should not be in the option of the Legislature to conceal their proceedings. Besides as this is a clause in the existing confederation, the not retaining it would furnish the adversaries of the reform with a pretext by which weak & suspicious minds may be easily misled.

M^r Mason thought it would give a just alarm to the people, to make a conclave of their Legislature.

M^r Sherman thought the Legislature might be trusted in this case if in any.

Question on 1^{st} part of the section down to "publish them" inclusive: Agreed to nem. con.

Question on the words to follow, to wit "except such parts thereof as may in their Judgment require secrecy."

N. H. div^d. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The remaining part as to yeas & nays,--agreed to nem. con.

Art VI. Sect. 8. taken up.

M^r King remarked that the section authorized the 2 Houses to adjourn to a new place. He thought this inconvenient. The mutability of place had dishonored the federal Gov^t and would require as strong a cure as we could devise. He thought a law at least should be made necessary to a removal of the Seat of Gov^t.

M^r Madison viewed the subject in the same light, and joined with M^r King in a motion requiring a law.

Mr. Govern^r Morris proposed the additional alteration by inserting the words, "during the Session" &c.

M^r Spaight. This will fix the seat of Gov^t at N. Y. The present Congress will convene them there in the first instance, and they will never be able to remove, especially if the Presid^t should be [a] Northern Man.

M^r Gov^r Morris such a distrust is inconsistent with all Gov^t.

M^r Madison supposed that a central place for the seat of Gov^t was so just and w^d be so much insisted on by the H. of Representatives, that though a law should be made requisite for the purpose, it could & would be obtained. The necessity of a central residence of the Gov^t w^d be much greater under the new than old Gov^t. The members of the new Gov^t w^d be more numerous. They would be taken more from the interior parts of the States; they w^d not like members of y^e present Cong^s come so often from the distant States by water. As the powers & objects of the new Gov^t would be far greater y^e heretofore, more private individuals w^d have business calling them to the seat of it, and it was more necessary that the Gov^t should be in that position from which it could contemplate with the most equal eye, and sympathize most equally with, every part of the nation. These considerations he supposed would extort a removal even if a law were made necessary. But in order to quiet suspicions both within & without doors, it might not be amiss to authorize the 2 Houses by a concurrent vote to adjourn at their first meeting to the most proper place, and to require thereafter, the sanction of a law to their removal.

The motion was accordingly moulded into the following form: "the Legislature shall at their first assembling determine on a place at which their future sessions shall be held; neither House shall afterwards, during the session of the House of Rep^s without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor shall they adjourn to any other place than such as shall have been fixt by law."

M^r Gerry thought it would be wrong to let the Presid^t check the will of the 2 Houses on this subject at all.

M^r Williamson supported the ideas of M^r Spaight.

M^r Carrol was actuated by the same apprehensions.

M^r Mercer, it will serve no purpose to require the two Houses at their first meeting to fix on a place. They will never agree.

After some further expressions from others denoting an apprehension that the seat of Gov^t might be continued at an improper place if a law should be made necessary to a removal, and the motion above stated with another for recommitting the section had been negatived, the section was left in the shape in which it was reported as to this point. The words, "during the session of the Legislature" were prefixed to the 8^{th} section--and the last sentence "But this regulation shall not extend to the Senate when it shall exercise the powers mentioned in the ---- article" struck out. The 8^{th} section as amended was then agreed to.

M^r Randolph moved according to notice to reconsider Art: IV. Sect. 5. concerning money bills which had been struck out. He argued 1. that he had not wished for this privilege whilst a proportional Representation in the Senate was in contemplation, but since an equality had been fixed in that house, the large States would require this compensation at least. 2. that it would make the plan more acceptable to the people, because they will consider the Senate as the more aristocratic body, and will expect that the usual guards ag^{st} its influence be provided according to the example in G. Britain. 3. the privilege will give some advantage to the House of Rep^s if it extends to the originating only--but still more if it restrains the Senate from amend^g. 4. he called on the smaller States to concur in the measure, as the condition by which alone the compromise had entitled them to an equality in the Senate. He signified that he should propose instead of the original section, a clause specifying that the bills in question should be for the purpose of Revenue, in order to repel y^e objection ag^{st} the extent of the words, "raising money," which might happen incidentally, and that the Senate should not so amend or alter as to increase or diminish the sum; in order to obviate the inconveniences urged ag^{st} a restriction of the Senate to a simple affirmation or negative.

M^r Williamson 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Pinkney was sorry to oppose the opportunity gentlemen asked to have the question again opened for discussion, but as he considered it a mere waste of time he could not bring himself to consent to it. He said that notwithstanding what had been said as to the compromise, he always considered this section as making no part of it. The rule of Representation in the 1^{st} branch was the true condition of that in the 2^d branch.--Several others spoke for & ag^{st} the reconsideration, but without going into the merits.--On the Question to reconsider

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J.[22] ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. div^d. Geo. ay.--Monday was then assigned--

[22] In the printed Journal N. Jersey--no.--Madison's Note.

Adj^d.[23]

[23] The next day being Sunday, Madison wrote to his father:

"PHILAD^A Aug^{st} 12, 1787.

"HON^D SIR

"I wrote to you lately inclosing a few newspapers. I now send a few more, not because they are interesting but because they may supply the want of intelligence that might be more so. The Convention reassembled at the time my last mentioned that they had adjourned to. It is not possible yet to determine the period to which the Session will be spun out. It must be some weeks from this date at least, and possibly may be computed by months. Eleven states are on the ground, and have generally been so since the second or third week of the Session. Rhode Island is one of the absent States. She has never yet appointed deputies. N. H. till of late was the other. That State is now represented. But just before the arrival of her deputies, those of N. York left us.--We have till within a few days had very cool weather. It is now pleasant, after a fine rain. Our acc^{ts} from Virg^a give us but an imperfect idea of the prospects with you. In particular places the drouth we hear has been dreadful. Gen^l Washington's neighbourhood is among the most suffering of them. I wish to know how your neighbourhood is off. But my chief anxiety is to hear that your health is re-established. The hope that this may procure me that information is the principal motive for writing it, having as you will readily see not been led to it by any thing worth communicating. With my love to my mother & the rest of the family I remain Dear Sir

"Y^r aff^t son." (Mad. MSS.)

Edward Carrington wrote to Madison from New York, August 11, showing the solicitude of federalist members of Congress:

"... The President has been requested to write to the states unrepresented, pressing upon them the objects which require the attendance of their delegations, & urging them to come forward, amongst the objects is that of the report of the convention, which, it is supposed, is now in the State of parturition--this bantling must receive the blessing of Congress this session, or, I fear, it will expire before the new one will assemble; every experiment has its critical stages which must be taken as they occur, or the whole will fail--the peoples expectations are rising with the progress of this work, but will desert it, should it remain long with Congress--permit me to suggest one idea as to the mode of obtaining the accession of the States to the new plan of government--let the convention appoint one day, say the 1^{st} of May, upon which a convention appointed by the people shall be held in each state, for the purpose of accepting or rejecting in toto, the project--supposing an act of the ordinary legislatures to be equally authentic, which would not be true, yet many reasons present themselves in favor of--special conventions--many men would be admitted who are excluded from the legislatures--the business would be taken up unclogged with any other--and it would effectually call the attention of all the people to the object as seriously affecting them. All the States being in convention at the same time, opportunities of speculating upon the views of each other would be cut off--the project should be decided upon without an attempt to alter it--you have doubtless found it difficult to reconcile the different opinions in your body--will it not be impossible then, to reconcile those which will arise amongst numerous assemblies in the different states? It is possible there never may be a general consent to the project as it goes out; but it is absolutely certain there will never be an agreement in amendments. It is the lot of but few to be able to discern the remote principles upon which their happiness & prosperity essentially depend--."--(Mad. MSS.)

MONDAY, AUG^{ST} 13. IN CONVENTION

Art. IV. Sect. 2. reconsidered--

M^r Wilson & M^r Randolph moved to strike out "7 years" and insert "4 years," as the requisite term of Citizenship to qualify for the House of Rep^s. M^r Wilson said it was very proper the electors should govern themselves by this consideration; but unnecessary & improper that the Constitution should chain them down to it.

M^r Gerry wished that in future the eligibility might be confined to Natives. Foreign powers will intermeddle in our affairs, and spare no expence to influence them. Persons having foreign attachments will be sent among us & insinuated into our councils, in order to be made instruments for their purposes. Every one knows the vast sums laid out in Europe for secret services. He was not singular in these ideas. A great many of the most influential men in Mass^{ts} reasoned in the same manner.

M^r Williamson moved to insert 9 years instead of seven. He wished this Country to acquire as fast as possible national habits. Wealthy emigrants do more harm by their luxurious examples, than good, by the money, they bring with them.

Fac-Simile. Facing Page (part 4)

Col. Hamilton was in general ag^{st} embarrassing the Gov^t with minute restrictions. There was on one side the possible danger that had been suggested. On the other side, the advantage of encouraging foreigners was obvious & admitted. Persons in Europe of moderate fortunes will be fond of coming here where they will be on a level with the first Citizens. He moved that the section be so altered as to require merely citizenship & inhabitancy. The right of determining the rule of naturalization will then leave a discretion to the Legislature on this subject which will answer every purpose.

M^r Madison seconded the motion. He wished to maintain the character of liberality which had been professed in all the Constitutions & publications of America. He wished to invite foreigners of merit & republican principles among us. America was indebted to emigration for her settlement & Prosperity. That part of America which had encouraged them most had advanced most rapidly in population, agriculture & the arts. There was a possible danger he admitted that men with foreign predilections might obtain appointments but it was by no means probable that it would happen in any dangerous degree. For the same reason that they would be attached to their native Country, our own people w^d prefer natives of this Country to them. Experience proved this to be the case. Instances were rare of a foreigner being elected by the people within any short space after his coming among us. If bribery was to be practised by foreign powers, it would not be attempted among the electors but among the elected, and among natives having full Confidence of the people not among strangers who would be regarded with a jealous eye.

M^r Wilson cited Pennsylv^a as a proof of the advantage of encouraging emigrations. It was perhaps the youngest (except Georgia) settlem^t on the Atlantic; yet it was at least among the foremost in population & prosperity. He remarked that almost all the Gen^l officers of the Pen^a line of the late army were foreigners. And no complaint had ever been made against their fidelity or merit. Three of her deputies to the Convention (M^r R. Morris, M^r Fitzsimons & himself) were also not natives. He had no objection to Col. Hamilton's motion & would withdraw the one made by himself.

M^r Butler was strenuous ag^{st} admitting foreigners into our public Councils.

Question on Col. Hamilton's Motion

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. Md. ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on M^r Williamson's motion to insert 9 years instead of seven.

N. H. ay. Mass^{ts} no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Wilson renewed the motion for 4 years instead of 7; & on question

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to add to the end of the section (Art IV. S. 2) a proviso that the limitation of seven years should not affect the rights of any person now a Citizen.

M^r Mercer 2^{ded} the motion. It was necessary he said to prevent a disfranchisement of persons who had become Citizens under and on the faith & according to the laws & Constitution from being on a level in all respects with natives.

M^r Rutlidge. It might as well be said that all qualifications are disfranchisem^{ts} and that to require the age of 25 years was a disfranchisement. The policy of the precaution was as great with regard to foreigners now Citizens; as to those who are to be naturalized in future.

M^r Sherman. The U. States have not invited foreigners nor pledged their faith that they should enjoy equal privileges with native Citizens. The Individual States alone have done this. The former therefore are at liberty to make any discriminations they may judge requisite.

M^r Ghorum. When foreigners are naturalized it w^d seem as if they stand on an equal footing with natives. He doubted then the propriety of giving a retrospective force to the restriction.

M^r Madison animadverted on the peculiarity of the doctrine of M^r Sherman. It was a subtilty by which every national engagement might be evaded. By parity of reason, Whenever our public debts, or foreign treaties become inconvenient nothing more would be necessary to relieve us from them, than to new model the Constitution. It was said that the U. S. as such have not pledged their faith to the naturalized foreigners, & therefore are not bound. Be it so, & that the States alone are bound. Who are to form the New Constitution by which the condition of that class of citizens is to be made worse than the other class? Are not the States y^e Agents? Will they not be the members of it? Did they not appoint this Convention? Are not they to ratify its proceedings? Will not the new Constitution be their Act? If the new Constitution then violates the faith pledged to any description of people will not the makers of it, will not the States, be the violaters? To justify the doctrine it must be said that the States can get rid of their obligation by revising the Constitution, though they could not do it by repealing the law under which foreigners held their privileges. He considered this a matter of real importance. It would expose us to the reproaches of all those who should be affected by it, reproaches which w^d soon be echoed from the other side of the Atlantic; and would unnecessarily enlist among the Adversaries of the reform a very considerable body of Citizens: We should moreover reduce every State to the dilemma of rejecting it or of violating the faith pledged to a part of its Citizens.

M^r Gov^r Morris considered the case of persons under 25 years, as very different from that of foreigners. No faith could be pleaded by the former in bar of the regulation. No assurance had ever been given that persons under that age should be in all cases on a level with those above it. But with regard to foreigners among us, the faith had been pledged that they should enjoy the privileges of Citizens. If the restriction as to age had been confined to natives, & had left foreigners under 25 years, eligible in this case, the discrimination w^d have been an equal injustice on the other side.

M^r Pinkney remarked that the laws of the States had varied much the terms of naturalization in different parts of America; and contended that the U. S. could not be bound to respect them on such an occasion as the present. It was a sort of recurrence to first principles.

Col. Mason was struck not like (Mr. Madison) with the peculiarity, but the propriety of the doctrine of M^r Sherman. The States have formed different qualifications themselves, for enjoying different rights of citizenship. Greater caution w^d be necessary in the outset of the Gov^t than afterwards. All the great objects w^d then be provided for. Every thing would be then set in motion. If persons among us attached to G. B. should work themselves into our Councils, a turn might be given to our affairs & particularly to our Commercial regulations which might have pernicious consequences. The Great Houses of British Merchants will spare no pains to insinuate the instruments of their views into the Gov^t.

M^r Wilson read the clause in the Constitution of Pen^a giving to foreigners after two years residence all the rights whatsoever of Citizens. Combined it with the article of Confederation making the Citizens of one State Citizens of all, inferred the obligation Pen^a was under to maintain the faith thus pledged to her citizens of foreign birth, and the just complaints which her failure would authorize: He observed likewise that the Princes & States of Europe would avail themselves of such breach of faith to deter their subjects from emigration to the U. S.

M^r Mercer enforced the same idea of a breach of faith.

M^r Baldwin could not enter into the force of the arguments ag^{st} extending the disqualification to foreigners now Citizens. The discrimination of the place of birth, was not more objectionable than that of age which all had concurred in the propriety of.

Question on the proviso of M^r Gov^r Morris in favor of foreigners now Citizens

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. Mary^d ay. V^t ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Carrol moved to insert "5 years" instead of "seven" in Sect. 2^d Art: IV

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a div^d. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The Section (Art IV. Sec. 2.) as formerly amended was then agreed to nem. con.

M^r Wilson moved that (in Art: V. Sect. 3.) 9 years be reduced to seven, which was disag^d to and the 3^d section (Art. V.) confirmed by the following vote.

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Art. IV. Sec. 5. being reconsidered.

M^r Randolph moved that the clause be altered so as to read--"Bills for raising money for the purpose of revenue or for appropriating the same shall originate in the House of Representatives and shall not be so amended or altered by the Senate as to increase or diminish the sum to be raised, or change the mode of levying it, or the object of its appropriation."--He would not repeat his reasons, but barely remind the members from the smaller States of the compromise by which the larger States were entitled to this privilege.

Col. Mason. This amendment removes all the objections urged ag^{st} the section as it stood at first. By specifying purposes of revenue, it obviated the objection that the section extended to all bills under which money might incidentally arise. By authorizing amendments in the Senate it got rid of the objections that the Senate could not correct errors of any sort, & that it would introduce into the House of Rep^s the practice of tacking foreign matter to money bills. These objections being removed, the arguments in favor of the proposed restraint on the Senate ought to have their full force. 1. the Senate did not represent the people, but the States in their political character. It was improper therefore that it should tax the people. The reason was the same ag^{st} their doing it; as it had been ag^{st} Cong^s doing it. Nor was it in any respect necessary in order to cure the evils of our Republican system. He admitted that notwithstanding the superiority of the Republican form over every other, it had its evils. The chief ones, were the danger of the majority oppressing the minority, and the mischievous influence of demagogues. The Gen^l Government of itself will cure them. As the States will not concur at the same time in their unjust & oppressive plans, the General Gov^t will be able to check & defeat them, whether they result from the wickedness of the majority, or from the misguidance of demagogues. Again, the Senate is not like the H. of Rep^s chosen frequently and obliged to return frequently among the people. They are to be chosen by the Sts for 6 years, will probably settle themselves at the seat of Gov^t will pursue schemes for their own aggrandisement--will be able by weary^g out the H. of Rep^s and taking advantage of their impatience at the close of a long Session, to extort measures for that purpose. If they should be paid as he expected would be yet determined & wished to be so, out of the Nat^l Treasury, they will particularly extort an increase of their wages. A bare negative was a very different thing from that of originating bills. The practice in Engl^d was in point. The House of Lords does not represent nor tax the people, because not elected by the people. If the Senate can originate, they will in the recess of the Legislative Sessions, hatch their mischievous projects, for their own purposes, and have their money bills ready cut & dried (to use a common phrase) for the meeting of the H. of Rep^s. He compared the case to Poyning's law--and signified that the House of Rep^s might be rendered by degrees like the Parliament of Paris, the mere depository of the decrees of the Senate. As to the compromise so much had passed on that subject that he would say nothing about it. He did not mean by what he had said to oppose the permanency of the Senate. On the contrary he had no repugnance to an increase of it--nor to allowing it a negative, though the Senate was not by its present constitution entitled to it. But in all events he would contend that the purse-strings should be in the hands of the Representatives of the people.

M^r Wilson was himself directly opposed to the equality of votes granted to the Senate by its present Constitution. At the same time he wished not to multiply the vices of the system. He did not mean to enlarge on a subject which had been so much canvassed, but would remark that as an insuperable objection ag^{st} the proposed restriction of money bills to the H. of Rep^s that it would be a source of perpetual contentions where there was no mediator to decide them. The Presid^t here could not like the Executive Magistrate in England interpose by a prorogation, or dissolution. This restriction had been found pregnant with altercation in every State where the Constitution had established it. The House of Rep^s will insert other things in money bills, and by making them conditions of each other, destroy the deliberate liberty of the Senate. He stated the case of a Preamble to a money bill sent up by the House of Commons in the reign of Queen Anne, to the H. of Lords, in which the conduct of the displaced Ministry, who were to be impeached before the Lords, was condemned; the Co[~m]ons thus extorting a premature judgm^t without any hearing of the Parties to be tried, and the H. of Lords being thus reduced to the poor & disgraceful expedient of opposing to the authority of a law, a protest on their Journals ag^{st} its being drawn into precedent. If there was anything like Poynings law in the present case, it was in the attempt to vest the exclusive right of originating in the H. of Rep^s and so far he was ag^{st} it. He should be equally so if the right were to be exclusively vested in the Senate. With regard to the purse strings, it was to be observed that the purse was to have two strings, one of which was in the hands of the H. of Rep^s the other in those of the Senate. Both houses must concur in untying, and of what importance could it be which untied first, which last. He could not conceive it to be any objection to the Senate's preparing the bills, that they would have leisure for that purpose and would be in the habits of business. War, Commerce, & Revenue were the great objects of the Gen^l Government. All of them are connected with money. The restriction in favor of the H. of Represent^s would exclude the Senate from originating any important bills whatever--

M^r Gerry considered this as a part of the plan that would be much scrutinized. Taxation & representation are strongly associated in the minds of the people, and they will not agree that any but their immediate representatives shall meddle with their purses. In short the acceptance of the plan will inevitably fail, if the Senate be not restrained from originating money bills.

M^r Govern^r Morris. All the arguments suppose the right to originate & to tax, to be exclusively vested in the Senate.--The effects commented on may be produced by a Negative only in the Senate. They can tire out the other House, and extort their concurrence in favorite measures, as well by withholding their negative, as by adhering to a bill introduced by themselves.

M^r Madison thought If the substitute offered by M^r Randolph for the original section is to be adopted it would be proper to allow the Senate at least so to amend as to diminish the sums to be raised. Why should they be restrained from checking the extravagance of the other House? One of the greatest evils incident to Republican Gov^t was the spirit of contention & faction. The proposed substitute, which in some respects lessened the objections ag^{st} the section, had a contrary effect with respect to this particular. It laid a foundation for new difficulties and disputes between the two houses. The word revenue was ambiguous. In many acts, particularly in the regulation of trade, the object would be twofold. The raising of revenue would be one of them. How could it be determined which was the primary or predominant one; or whether it was necessary that revenue sh^d be the sole object, in exclusion even of other incidental effects. When the Contest was first opened with G. B. their power to regulate trade was admitted. Their power to raise revenue rejected. An accurate investigation of the subject afterwards proved that no line could be drawn between the two cases. The words amend or alter form an equal source of doubt & altercation. When an obnoxious paragraph shall be sent down from the Senate to the House of Rep^s, it will be called an origination under the name of an amendment. The Senate may actually couch extraneous matter under that name. In these cases, the question will turn on the degree of connection between the matter & object of the bill and the alteration or amendment offered to it. Can there be a more fruitful source of dispute, or a kind of dispute more difficult to be settled? His apprehensions on this point were not conjectural. Disputes had actually flowed from this source in Virg^a where the Senate can originate no bill. The words, "so as to increase or diminish the sum to be raised," were liable to the same objections. In levying indirect taxes, which it seemed to be understood were to form the principal revenue of the new Gov^t the sum to be raised, would be increased or diminished by a variety of collateral circumstances influencing the consumption, in general, the consumption of foreign or of domestic articles--of this or that particular species of articles and even by the mode of collection which may be closely connected with the productiveness of a tax.--The friends of the section had argued its necessity from the permanency of the Senate. He could not see how this argum^t applied. The Senate was not more permanent now than in the form it bore in the original propositions of M^r Randolph and at the time when no objection whatever was hinted ag^{st} its originating money bills. Or if in consequence of a loss of the present question, a proportional vote in the Senate should be reinstated as has been urged as the indemnification the permanency of the Senate will remain the same.--If the right to originate be vested exclusively in the House of Rep^s either the Senate must yield ag^{st} its judgment to that House, in which case the Utility of the check will be lost--or the Senate will be inflexible & the H. of Rep^s must adapt its money bill to the views of the Senate, in which case, the exclusive right will be of no avail.--As to the Compromise of which so much had been said, he would make a single observation. There were 5 States which had opposed the equality of votes in the Senate, viz, Mass^{ts}. Penn^a Virg^a N. Carolina & South Carol^a. As a compensation for the sacrifice extorted from them on this head, the exclusive origination of money bills in the other House had been tendered. Of the five States a majority viz. Penn^a Virg^a & S. Carol^a have uniformly voted ag^{st} the proposed compensation, on its own merits, as rendering the plan of Gov^t still more objectionable. Mass^{ts} has been divided. N. Carolina alone has set a value on the compensation, and voted on that principle. What obligation then can the small States be under to concur ag^{st} their judgments in reinstating the section?

M^r Dickenson. Experience must be our only guide. Reason may mislead us. It was not Reason that discovered the singular & admirable mechanism of the English Constitution. It was not Reason that discovered or ever could have discovered the odd & in the eye of those who are governed by reason, the absurd mode of trial by Jury. Accidents probably produced these discoveries, and experience has given a sanction to them. This is then our guide. And has not experience verified the utility of restraining money bills to the immediate representatives of the people. Whence the effect may have proceeded he could not say: whether from the respect with which this privilege inspired the other branches of Gov^t to the H. of Co[~m]ons, or from the turn of thinking it gave to the people at large with regard to their rights, but the effect was visible & could not be doubted--Shall we oppose to this long experience, the short experience of 11 years which we had ourselves, on this subject. As to disputes, they could not be avoided any way. If both Houses should originate, each would have a different bill to which it would be attached, and for which it would contend.--He observed that all the prejudices of the people would be offended by refusing this exclusive privilege to the H. of Repres^s and these prejudices sh^d never be disregarded by us when no essential purpose was to be served. When this plan goes forth it will be attacked by the popular leaders. Aristocracy will be the watchword; the Shiboleth among its adversaries. Eight States have inserted in their Constitutions the exclusive right of originating money bills in favor of the popular branch of the Legislature. Most of them however allowed the other branch to amend. This he thought would be proper for us to do.

M^r Randolph regarded this point as of such consequence, that as he valued the peace of this Country, he would press the adoption of it. We had numerous & monstrous difficulties to combat. Surely we ought not to increase them. When the people behold in the Senate, the countenance of an aristocracy; and in the president, the form at least of a little monarch, will not their alarms be sufficiently raised without taking from their immediate representatives, a right which has been so long appropriated to them.--The Executive will have more influence over the Senate, than over the H. of Rep^s Allow the Senate to originate in this Case, & that influence will be sure to mix itself in their deliberations & plans. The Declaration of War he conceived ought not to be in the Senate composed of 26 men only, but rather in the other House. In the other House ought to be placed the origination of the means of war. As to Commercial regulations which may involve revenue, the difficulty may be avoided by restraining the definition to bills, for the mere or sole, purpose of raising revenue. The Senate will be more likely to be corrupt than the H. of Rep^s and should therefore have less to do with money matters. His principal object however was to prevent popular objections against the plan, and to secure its adoption.

M^r Rutlidge. The friends of this motion are not consistent in their reasoning. They tell us that we ought to be guided by the long experience of G. B. & not our own experience of 11 years; and yet they themselves propose to depart from it. The H. of Co[~m]ons not only have the exclusive right of originating, but the Lords are not allowed to alter or amend a money bill. Will not the people say that this restriction is but a mere tub to the whale. They cannot but see that it is of no real consequence; and will be more likely to be displeased with it as an attempt to bubble them, than to impute it to a watchfulness over their rights. For his part, he would prefer giving the exclusive right to the Senate, if it was to be given exclusively at all. The Senate being more conversant in business, and having more leisure, will digest the bills much better, and as they are to have no effect, till examined & approved by the H. of Rep^s there can be no possible danger. These clauses in the Constitutions of the States had been put in through a blind adherence to the British model. If the work was to be done over now, they would be omitted. The experiment in S. Carolina, where the Senate can originate or amend money bills, has shewn that it answers no good purpose; and produces the very bad one of continually dividing & heating the two houses. Sometimes indeed if the matter of the amendment of the Senate is pleasing to the other House they wink at the encroachment; if it be displeasing, then the Constitution is appealed to. Every Session is distracted by altercations on this subject. The practice now becoming frequent is for the Senate not to make formal amendments; but to send down a schedule of the alterations which will procure the bill their assent.

M^r Carrol. The most ingenious men in Mary^d are puzzled to define the case of money bills, or explain the Constitution on that point, tho it seemed to be worded with all possible plainness & precision. It is a source of continual difficulty & squabble between the two houses.

M^r McHenry[24] mentioned an instance of extraordinary subterfuge, to get rid of the apparent force of the Constitution.

[24] "Mr. McHenry was bred a physician, but he afterwards turned Soldier and acted as Aid to Gen^l Washington and the Marquis de la Fayette. He is a Man of Specious talents, with nothing of genious to improve them. As a politician there is nothing remarkable in him, nor has he any of the graces of the Orator. He is however, a very respectable young Gentleman, and deserves the honor which his country has bestowed on him. Mr. McHenry is about 32 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 330.

On Question on the first part of the motion as to the exclusive originating of Money bills in the H. of Rep^s

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. Virg^a ay. M^r Blair & M^r M. no. M^r R, Col. Mason and Gen^l Washington[25] ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

[25] He disapproved & till now voted ag^{st} the exclusive privilege, he gave up his judgment he said because it was not of very material weight with him & was made an essential point with others who if disappointed, might be less cordial in other points of real weight.--Madison's Note.

Question on Originating by H. of Rep^s & amending by Senate, as reported Art IV. Sect. 5.

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a[26] ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

[26] In the printed Journ Virg^a--no.--Madison's Note.

Question on the last clause of Sect. 5, Art: IV--viz "No money shall be drawn from the Public Treasury, but in pursuance of appropriations that shall originate in the House of Rep^s. It passed in the negative--

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Con. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Adj^d.

TUESDAY AUG. 14[27]. IN CONVENTION

[27] General Henry Knox wrote to Washington from New York under date of August 14th:

"Influenced by motives of delicacy I have hitherto forborne the pleasure my dear Sir of writing to you since my return from Philadelphia.

"I have been apprehensive that the stages of the business of the convention, might leak out, and be made an ill use of, by some people. I have therefore been anxious that you should escape the possibility of imputation. But as the subjects seem now to be brought to a point, I take the liberty to indulge myself in communicating with you.

"Although I frankly confess that the existence of the State governments is an insuperable evil in a national point of view, yet I do not well see how in this stage of the business they could be annihilated--and perhaps while they continue the frame of government could not with propriety be much higher toned than the one proposed. It is so infinitely preferable to the present constitution, and gives such a bias to a proper line of conduct in future that I think all men anxious for a national government should zealously embrace it.

"The education, genius, and habits of men on this continent are so various even at this moment, and of consequence their views of the same subject so different, that I am satisfied with the result of the convention, although it is short of my wishes and of my judgment.

"But when I find men of the purest intentions concur in embracing a system which on the highest deliberation, seems to be the best which can be obtained, under present circumstances, I am convinced of the propriety of its being strenuously supported by all those who have wished for a national republic of higher and more durable powers.

"I am persuaded that the address of the convention to accompany their proposition will be couched in the most persuasive terms.

"I feel anxious that there should be the fullest representation in Congress, in order that the propositions should receive their warmest concurrence and strongest impulse...."--Wash. MSS.

Article VI. Sect. 9. taken up.

M^r Pinkney argued that the making the members ineligible to offices was degrading to them, and the more improper as their election into the Legislature implied that they had the confidence of the people; that it was inconvenient, because the Senate might be supposed to contain the fittest men. He hoped to see that body become a School of public Ministers, a nursery of Statesmen: that it was impolitic, because the Legislature would cease to be a magnet to the first talents and abilities. He moved to postpone the section in order to take up the following proposition viz--"the members of each House shall be incapable of holding any office under the U. S. for which they or any of others for their benefit receive any salary, fees, or emoluments of any kind--and the acceptance of such office shall vacate their seats respectively."

Gen^s Mifflin[28] 2^{ded} the motion.

[28] "General Mifflin is well known for the activity of his mind, and the brilliancy of his parts. He is well-informed and a graceful Speaker. The General is about 40 years of age and a very handsome man."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 328.

Col. Mason ironically proposed to strike out the whole section, as a more effectual expedient for encouraging that exotic corruption which might not otherwise thrive so well in the American Soil--for compleating that Aristocracy which was probably in the contemplation of some among us, and for inviting into the Legislative Service, those generous & benevolent characters who will do justice to each other's merit, by carving out offices & rewards for it. In the present state of American morals & manners, few friends it may be thought will be lost to the plan, by the opportunity of giving premiums to a mercenary & depraved ambition.

M^r Mercer. It is a first principle in political science, that whenever the rights of property are secured, an aristocracy will grow out of it. Elective Governments also necessarily become aristocratic, because the rulers being few can & will draw emoluments for themselves from the many. The Governments of America will become aristocracies. They are so already. The public measures are calculated for the benefit of the Governors, not of the people. The people are dissatisfied & complain. They change their rulers, and the public measures are changed, but it is only a change of one scheme of emolument to the rulers, for another. The people gain nothing by it, but an addition of instability & uncertainty to their other evils.--Governm^{ts} can only be maintained by force or influence. The Executive has not force, deprive him of influence by rendering the members of the Legislature ineligible to Executive offices, and he becomes a mere phantom of authority. The Aristocratic part will not even let him in for a share of the plunder. The Legislature must & will be composed of wealth & abilities, and the people will be governed by a Junto. The Executive ought to have a Council, being members of both Houses. Without such an influence, the war will be between the aristocracy & the people. He wished it to be between the Aristocracy & the Executive. Nothing else can protect the people ag^{st} those speculating Legislatures which are now plundering them throughout the U. States.

M^r Gerry read a Resolution of the Legislature of Mass^{ts} passed before the Act of Cong^s recommending the Convention, in which her deputies were instructed not to depart from the rotation established in the 5^{th} art: of Confederation, nor to agree in any case to give to the members of Cong^s a capacity to hold offices under the Government. This he said was repealed in consequence of the Act of Cong^s with which the State thought it proper to comply in an unqualified manner. The Sense of the State however was Still the same. He could not think with M^r Pinkney that the disqualification was degrading. Confidence is the road to tyranny. As to Ministers & Ambassadors few of them were necessary. It is the opinion of a great many that they ought to be discontinued, on our part; that none may be sent among us, & that source of influence be shut up. If the Senate were to appoint Ambassadors as seemed to be intended, they will multiply embassies for their own sakes. He was not so fond of those productions as to wish to establish nurseries for them. If they are once appointed, the House of Rep^s will be obliged to provide salaries for them, whether they approve of the measures or not. If men will not serve in the Legislature without a prospect of such offices, our situation is deplorable indeed. If our best Citizens are actuated by such mercenary views we had better chuse a single despot at once. It will be more easy to satisfy the rapacity of one than of many. According to the idea of one Gentleman (M^r Mercer) our Government it seems is to be a Gov^t of plunder. In that case it certainly would be prudent to have but one rather than many to be employed in it. We cannot be too circumspect in the formation of this System. It will be examined on all sides and with a very suspicious eye. The people who have been so lately in arms ag^{st} G. B. for their liberties, will not easily give them up. He lamented the evils existing at present under our Governments, but imputed them to the faults of those in office, not to the people. The misdeeds of the former will produce a critical attention to the opportunities afforded by the new system to like or greater abuses. As it now stands it is as compleat an aristocracy as ever was framed. If great powers should be given to the Senate we shall be governed in reality by a Junto as has been apprehended. He remarked that it would be very differently constituted from Cong^s. 1. there will be but 2 deputies from each State, in Cong^s there may be 7. and are generally 5.--2. they are chosen for six years, those of Congress annually. 3. they are not subject to recall; those of Cong^s are. 4. In Congress 9 States are necessary for all great purposes, here 8 persons will suffice. Is it to be presumed that the people will ever agree to such a system? He moved to render the members of the H. of Rep^s as well as of the Senate ineligible not only during, but for one year after the expiration of their terms.--If it should be thought that this will injure the Legislature by keeping out of it men of abilities who are willing to serve in other offices it may be required as a qualification for other offices, that the Candidate shall have served a certain time in the Legislature.

M^r Gov^r Morris. Exclude the officers of the army & navy, and you form a band having a different interest from & opposed to the civil power: you stimulate them to despise & reproach those "talking Lords who dare not face the foe." Let this spirit be roused at the end of a war, before your troops shall have laid down their arms, and though the Civil authority "be intrenched in parchment to the teeth" they will cut their way to it. He was ag^{st} rendering the members of the Legislature ineligible to offices. He was for rendering them eligible ag^n after having vacated their Seats by accepting office. Why should we not avail ourselves of their services if the people chuse to give them their confidence. There can be little danger of corruption either among the people or the Legislatures who are to be the Electors. If they say, we see their merits, we honor the men, we chuse to renew our confidence in them, have they not a right to give them a preference; and can they be properly abridged of it.

M^r Williamson; introduced his opposition to the motion by referring to the question concerning "money bills." That clause he said was dead. Its Ghost he was afraid would notwithstanding haunt us. It had been a matter of conscience with him, to insist upon it as long as there was hope of retaining it. He had swallowed the vote of rejection, with reluctance. He could not digest it. All that was said on the other side was that the restriction was not convenient. We have now got a House of Lords which is to originate money-bills.--To avoid another inconveniency, we are to have a whole Legislature at liberty to cut out offices for one another. He thought a self-denying ordinance for ourselves would be more proper. Bad as the Constitution has been made by expunging the restriction on the Senate concerning money bills he did not wish to make it worse by expunging the present Section. He had scarcely seen a single corrupt measure in the Legislature of N. Carolina, which could not be traced up to office hunting.

M^r Sherman. The Constitution sh^d lay as few temptations as possible in the way of those in power. Men of abilities will increase as the Country grows more populous and as the means of education are more diffused.

M^r Pinkney. No State has rendered the members of the Legislature ineligible to offices. In S. Carolina the Judges are eligible into the Legislature. It cannot be supposed then that the motion will be offensive to the people. If the State Constitutions should be revised he believed restrictions of this sort w^d be rather diminished than multiplied.

M^r Wilson could not approve of the section as it stood, and could not give up his judgment to any supposed objections that might arise among the people. He considered himself as acting & responsible for the welfare of millions not immediately represented in this House. He had also asked himself the serious question what he should say to his constituents in case they should call upon him to tell them why he sacrificed his own Judgment in a case where they authorized him to exercise it? Were he to own to them that he sacrificed it in order to flatter their prejudices, he should dread the retort: did you suppose the people of Penn^a had not good sense enough to receive a good Government? Under this impression he should certainly follow his own Judgment which disapproved of the section. He would remark in addition to the objections urged ag^{st} it, that as one branch of the Legislature was to be appointed by the Legislatures of the States, the other by the people of the States, as both are to be paid by the States, and to be appointable to State offices, nothing seemed to be wanting to prostrate the Nat^l Legislature, but to render its members ineligible to Nat^l offices, & by that means take away its power of attracting those talents which were necessary to give weight to the Govern^t and to render it useful to the people. He was far from thinking the ambition which aspired to Offices of dignity and trust, an ignoble or culpable one. He was sure it was not politic to regard it in that light, or to withhold from it the prospect of those rewards, which might engage it in the career of public service. He observed that the State of Penn^a which had gone as far as any State into the policy of fettering power, had not rendered the members of the Legislature ineligible to offices of Gov^t.

M^r Elsworth did not think the mere postponement of the reward would be any material discouragement of merit. Ambitious minds will serve 2 years or 7 years in the Legislature for the sake of qualifying themselves for other offices. This he thought a sufficient security for obtaining the services of the ablest men in the Legislature, although whilst members they should be ineligible to Public offices. Besides, merit will be most encouraged, when most impartially rewarded. If rewards are to circulate only within the Legislature, merit out of it will be discouraged.

M^r Mercer was extremely anxious on this point. What led to the appointment of this Convention? The corruption & mutability of the Legislative Councils of the States. If the plan does not remedy these, it will not recommend itself; and we shall not be able in our private capacities to support & enforce it: nor will the best part of our Citizens exert themselves for the purpose.--It is a great mistake to suppose that the paper we are to propose will govern the U. States. It is The men whom it will bring into the Govern^t and interest in maintaining it that is to govern them. The paper will only mark out the mode & the form. Men are the substance and must do the business. All Gov^t must be by force or influence. It is not the King of France--but 200,000 janisaries of power that govern that Kingdom. There will be no such force here; influence then must be substituted; and he would ask whether this could be done, if the members of the Legislature should be ineligible to offices of State; whether such a disqualification would not determine all the most influential men to stay at home, & prefer appointments within their respective States.

M^r Wilson was by no means satisfied with the answer given by M^r Elseworth to the argument as to the discouragement of merit. The members must either go a second time into the Legislature, and disqualify themselves--or say to their Constituents, we served you before only from the mercenary view of qualifying ourselves for offices, and have^g answered this purpose we do not chuse to be again elected.

M^r Gov^r Morris put the case of a war, and the Citizen the most capable of conducting it, happening to be a member of the Legislature. What might have been the consequence of such a regulation at the commencement, or even in the Course of the late contest for our liberties?

On question for postponing in order to take up M^r Pinkney's motion, it was lost,

N. H. ay. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. div^d.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to insert, after "office," except offices in the army or navy: but in that case their offices shall be vacated.

M^r Broom 2^{ds} him.

M^r Randolph had been & should continue uniformly opposed to the striking out of the clause; as opening a door for influence & corruption. No arguments had made any impression on him, but those which related to the case of war, and a co-existing incapacity of the fittest commanders to be employed. He admitted great weight in these, and would agree to the exception proposed by M^r Gov^r Morris.

M^r Butler & M^r Pinkney urged a general postponem^t of 9. Sect. Art. VI. till it should be seen what powers would be vested in the Senate, when it would be more easy to judge of the expediency of allowing the officers of State to be chosen out of that body.--A general postponement was agreed to nem. con.

Art: VI. Sect. 10. taken up--"that members be paid by their respective States."

M^r Elseworth said that in reflecting on this subject he had been satisfied that too much dependence on the States would be produced by this mode of payment. He moved to strike it out and insert that they should "be paid out of the Treasury of the U. S. an allowance not exceeding ([blank]) dollars per day or the present value thereof."

M^r Gov^r Morris, remarked that if the members were to be paid by the States it would throw an unequal burden on the distant States, which would be unjust as the Legislature, was to be a national Assembly. He moved that the payment be out of the Nat^l Treasury; leaving the quantum to the discretion of the Nat^l Legislature. There could be no reason to fear that they would overpay themselves.

M^r Butler contended for payment by the States; particularly in the case of the Senate, who will be so long out of their respective States, that they will lose sight of their Constituents unless dependent on them for their support.

M^r Langdon was ag^{st} payment by the States. There would be some difficulty in fixing the sum; but it would be unjust to oblige the distant States to bear the expence of their members in travelling to and from the Seat of Gov^t.

M^r Madison. If the H. of Rep^s is to be chosen biennially--and the Senate to be constantly dependent on the Legislatures which are chosen annually, he could not see any chance for that stability in the Gen^l Gov^t the want of which was a principal evil in the State Gov^{ts}. His fear was that the organization of the Gov^t supposing the Senate to be really independ^t for six years, would not effect our purpose. It was nothing more than a combination of the peculiarities of two of the State Gov^{ts} which separately had been found insufficient. The Senate was formed on the model of that of Maryl^d. The Revisionary check, on that of N. York. What the effect of a union of these provisions might be, could not be foreseen. The enlargement of the sphere of the Government was indeed a circumstance which he thought would be favorable as he had on several occasions undertaken to show. He was however for fixing at least two extremes not to be exceeded by the Nat^l Legisl^{re} in the payment of themselves.

M^r Gerry. There are difficulties on both sides. The observation of M^r Butler has weight in it. On the other side, the State Legislatures may turn out the Senators by reducing their salaries. Such things have been practised.

Col. Mason. It has not yet been noticed that the clause as it now stands makes the House of Represent^s also dependent on the State Legislatures: so that both houses will be made the instruments of the politics of the States whatever they may be.

M^r Broom could see no danger in trusting the Gen^l Legislature with the payment of themselves. The State Legislatures had this power, and no complaint had been made of it.

M^r Sherman was not afraid that the Legislature would make their own wages too high; but too low, so that men ever so fit could not serve unless they were at the same time rich. He thought the best plan would be to fix a moderate allowance to be paid out of the Nat^l Treas^y and let the States make such additions as they might judge fit. He moved that 5 dollars per day be the sum, any further emoluments to be added by the States.

M^r Carrol had been much surprised at seeing this clause in the Report. The dependence of both Houses on the State Legislatures is compleat; especially as the members of the former are eligible to State offices. The States can now say: if you do not comply with our wishes, we will starve you; if you do we will reward you. The new Gov^t in this form was nothing more than a second edition of Congress in two volumes, instead of one, and perhaps with very few amendments--

M^r Dickenson took it for granted that all were convinced of the necessity of making the Gen^l Gov^t independent of the prejudices, passions, and improper views of the State Legislatures. The contrary of This was effected by the section as it stands. On the other hand there were objections ag^{st} taking a permanent standard as wheat which had been suggested on a former occasion, as well as against leaving the matter to the pleasure of the Nat^l Legislature. He proposed that an Act should be passed every 12 years by the Nat^l Legisl^{re} settling the quantum of their wages. If the Gen^l Gov^t should be left dependent on the State Legislatures, it would be happy for us if we had never met in this Room.

M^r Elseworth was not unwilling himself to trust the Legislature with authority to regulate their own wages, but well knew that an unlimited discretion for that purpose would produce strong, tho' perhaps not insuperable objections. He thought changes in the value of money, provided for by his motion in the words, "or the present value thereof."

M^r L. Martin. As the Senate is to represent the States, the members of it ought to be paid by the States.

M^r Carrol. The Senate was to represent & manage the affairs of the whole, and not to be the advocates of State interests. They ought then not to be dependent on nor paid by the States.

On the question for paying the Members of the Legislature out of the Nat^l Treasury,

N. H. ay. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Elseworth moved that the pay be fixed at 5 doll^{rs} or the present value thereof per day during their attendance & for every thirty miles in travelling to & from Congress.

M^r Strong preferred 4 dollars, leaving the Sts. at liberty to make additions.

On question for fixing the pay at 5 dollars.

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Dickenson proposed that the wages of the members of both houses s^d be required to be the same.

M^r Broome seconded him.

M^r Ghorum. this would be unreasonable. The Senate will be detained longer from home, will be obliged to remove their families, and in time of war perhaps to sit constantly. Their allowance should certainly be higher. The members of the Senates in the States are allowed more, than those of the other house.

M^r Dickenson withdrew his motion.

It was moved & agreed to amend the section by adding--"to be ascertained by law."

The section (Art. VI. Sect. 10) as amended, agreed to nem. con.

Adj^d.

WEDNESDAY AUGUST 15. IN CONVENTION.

Art: VI. Sect. 11. Agreed to nem. con.

Art: VI. Sect 12. taken up.

M^r Strong moved to amend the article so as to read--"Each House shall possess the right of originating all bills, except bills for raising money for the purposes of revenue, or for appropriating the same and for fixing the salaries of the officers of the Gov^t which shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as in other cases".

Col. Mason, 2^{ds} the motion. He was extremely earnest to take this power from the Senate, who he said could already sell the whole Country by means of Treaties.

M^r Ghorum urged the amendment as of great importance. The Senate will first acquire the habit of preparing money bills, and then the practice will grow into an exclusive right of preparing them.

M^r Govern^r Morris opposed it as unnecessary and inconvenient.

M^r Williamson, some think this restriction on the Senate essential to liberty, others think it of no importance. Why should not the former be indulged. He was for an efficient and stable Gov^t: but many would not strengthen the Senate if not restricted in the case of money bills. The friends of the Senate would therefore lose more than they would gain by refusing to gratify the other side. He moved to postpone the subject till the powers of the Senate should be gone over.

M^r Rutlidge 2^{ds} the motion.

M^r Mercer should hereafter be ag^{st} returning to a reconsideration of this section. He contended (alluding to M^r Mason's observations) that the Senate ought not to have the power of treaties. This power belonged to the Executive department; adding that Treaties would not be final so as to alter the laws of the land, till ratified by legislative authority. This was the case of Treaties in Great Britain; particularly the late Treaty of Co[~m]erce with France.

Col. Mason, did not say that a Treaty would repeal a law; but that the Senate by means of treaty might alienate territory &c., without legislative sanction. The cessions of the British Islands in W. Indies by Treaty alone were an example. If Spain should possess herself of Georgia therefore the Senate might by treaty dismember the Union. He wished the motion to be decided now, that the friends of it might know how to conduct themselves.

On the question for postponing Sect: 12. it passed in the affirmative.

N. H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. Pen^a no. Del: no. Mary^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison moved that all acts before they become laws should be submitted both to the Executive and supreme Judiciary Departments, that if either of these should object 2/3 of each House, if both should object, 3/4 of each House, should be necessary to overrule the objections and give to the acts the force of law.[29]

[29] Madison's Note says: "See the motion at large in the Journal of this date, page 253, and insert it here." The Journal gives it as follows:

"It was moved by Mr. Madison, and seconded, to agree to the following amendment of the thirteenth section of the sixth article:

"Every bill which shall have passed the two houses, shall, before it become a law, be severally presented to the President of the United States, and to the judges of the supreme court for the revision of each. If, upon such revision, they shall approve of it, they shall respectively signify their approbation by signing it; but if, upon such revision, it shall appear improper to either, or both, to be passed into a law, it shall be returned, with the objections against it, to that house, in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider the bill: but if, after such reconsideration, two thirds of that house, when either the President, or a majority of the judges shall object, or three fourths, where both shall object, shall agree to pass it, it shall, together with the objections, be sent to the other house, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered; and, if approved by two thirds, or three fourths of the other house, as the case may be, it shall become a law."

M^r Wilson seconds the motion.

M^r Pinkney opposed the interference of the Judges in the Legislative business: it will involve them in parties, and give a previous tincture to their opinions.

M^r Mercer heartily approved the motion. It is an axiom that the Judiciary ought to be separate from the Legislative; but equally so that it ought to be independent of that department. The true policy of the axiom is that legislative usurpation and oppression may be obviated. He disapproved of the Doctrine that the Judges as expositors of the Constitution should have authority to declare a law void. He thought laws ought to be well and cautiously made, and then to be uncontroulable.

M^r Gerry. This motion comes to the same thing with what has been already negatived.

Question on the motion of M^r Madison

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. Mary^d ay. Virg^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Gov^r Morris regretted that something like the proposed check could not be agreed to. He dwelt on the importance of public Credit, and the difficulty of supporting it without some strong barrier against the instability of legislative Assemblies. He suggested the idea of requiring three fourths of each house to repeal laws where the President should not concur. He had no great reliance on the revisionary power as the Executive was now to be constituted (elected by Congress.) The legislature will contrive to soften down the President. He recited the history of paper emissions, and the perseverance of the legislative assemblies in repeating them, with all the distressing effects of such measures before their eyes. Were the National legislature formed, and a war was now to break out, this ruinous expedient would be again resorted to, if not guarded against. The requiring 3/4 to repeal would, though not a compleat remedy, prevent the hasty passage of laws, and the frequency of those repeals which destroy faith in the public, and which are among our greatest calamities.

M^r Dickenson was strongly impressed with the remark of M^r Mercer as to the power of the Judges to set aside the law. He thought no such power ought to exist. He was at the same time at a loss what expedient to substitute. The Justiciary of Arragon he observed became by degrees the lawgiver.

M^r Gov^r Morris, suggested the expedient of an absolute negative in the Executive. He could not agree that the Judiciary which was part of the Executive, should be bound to say that a direct violation of the Constitution was law. A controul over the legislature might have its inconveniences. But view the danger on the other side. The most virtuous Citizens will often as members of a legislative body concur in measures which afterwards in their private capacity they will be ashamed of. Encroachments of the popular branch of the Government ought to be guarded ag^{st}. The Ephori at Sparta became in the end absolute. The Report of the Council of Censors in Pennsylv^a points out the many invasions of the legislative department on the Executive numerous as the latter[30] is, within the short term of seven years, and in a State where a strong party is opposed to the Constitution, and watching every occasion of turning the public resentments ag^{st} it. If the Executive be overturned by the popular branch, as happened in England, the tyranny of one man will ensue. In Rome where the Aristocracy overturned the throne, the consequence was different. He enlarged on the tendency of the legislative Authority to usurp on the Executive and wished the section to be postponed, in order to consider of some more effectual check than requiring 2/3 only to overrule the negative of the Executive.

[30] The Executive consists at this time of ab^t 20 members.--Madison's Note.

M^r Sherman. Can one man be trusted better than all the others if they all agree? This was neither wise nor safe. He disapproved of Judges meddling in politics and parties. We have gone far enough in forming the negative as it now stands.

M^r Carrol. When the negative to be overruled by 2/3 only was agreed to, the quorum was not fixed. He remarked that as a majority was now to be the quorum, 17. in the larger, and 8 in the smaller house might carry points. The advantage that might be taken of this seemed to call for greater impediments to improper laws. He thought the controuling power however of the Executive could not be well decided, till it was seen how the formation of that department would be finally regulated. He wished the consideration of the matter to be postponed.

M^r Ghorum saw no end to these difficulties and postponements. Some could not agree to the form of Government before the powers were defined. Others could not agree to the powers till it was seen how the Government was to be formed. He thought a majority as large a quorum as was necessary. It was the quorum almost every where fixt in the U. States.

M^r Wilson; after viewing the subject with all the coolness and attention possible was most apprehensive of a dissolution of the Gov^t from the legislature swallowing up all the other powers. He remarked that the prejudices ag^{st} the Executive resulted from a misapplication of the adage that the parliament was the palladium of liberty. Where the Executive was really formidable, King and Tyrant, were naturally associated in the minds of people; not legislature and tyranny. But where the Executive was not formidable, the two last were most properly associated. After the destruction of the King in Great Britain, a more pure and unmixed tyranny sprang up in the parliament than had been exercised by the monarch. He insisted that we had not guarded ag^{st} the danger on this side by a sufficient self-defensive power either to the Executive or Judiciary department.

M^r Rutlidge was strenuous ag^{st} postponing; and complained much of the tediousness of the proceedings.

M^r Elseworth held the same language. We grow more & more sceptical as we proceed. If we do not decide soon, we shall be unable to come to any decision.

The question for postponement passed in the negative: Del: & Mary^d only being in the affirmative.

M^r Williamson moved to change, "2/3 of each House" into "3/4" as requisite to overrule the dissent of the President. He saw no danger in this, and preferred giving the power to the Presid^t alone, to admitting the Judges into the business of legislation.

M^r Wilson 2^{ds} the motion; referring to and repeating the ideas of M^r Carroll.

On this motion for 3/4, instead of two-thirds; it passed in the affirmative.

N. H. no. Mass. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. Pen^a div^d. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Madison, observing that if the negative of the President was confined to bills; it would be evaded by acts under the form and name of Resolutions, votes &c., proposed that "or resolve" should be added after "bill" in the beginning of sect 13. with an exception as to votes of adjournment &c. After a short and rather confused conversation on the subject, the question was put & rejected, the States being as follows,

N. H. no. Mass. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. Pen^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

"Ten days (Sundays excepted)" instead of "seven" were allowed to the President for returning bills with his objections N. H. & Mas: only voting ag^{st} it.

The 13 Sect: of Art. VI as amended was then agreed to.

Adjourned.

THURSDAY. AUGUST 16. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Randolph having thrown into a new form the motion putting votes, Resolutions &c. on a footing with Bills, renewed it as follows--"Every order resolution or vote, to which the concurrence of the Senate & House of Rep^s may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment and in the cases hereinafter mentioned) shall be presented to the President for his revision; and before the same shall have force shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him shall be repassed by the Senate & House of Rep^s according to the rules & limitations prescribed in the case of a Bill."

M^r Sherman thought it unnecessary, except as to votes taking money out of the Treasury which might be provided for in another place.

On Question as moved by M^r Randolph

N. H. ay. Mass. not present. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The Amendment was made section 14. of Art. VI.

Art: VII. Sect. 1. taken up.

M^r L. Martin asked what was meant by the Committee of detail in the expression,--"duties" and "imposts." If the meaning were the same, the former was unnecessary; if different, the matter ought to be made clear.

M^r Wilson. Duties are applicable to many objects to which the word imposts does not relate. The latter are appropriated to commerce; the former extend to a variety of objects, as stamp duties &c.

M^r Carroll reminded the Convention of the great difference of interests among the States, and doubts the propriety in that point of view of letting a majority be a quorum.

M^r Mason urged the necessity of connecting with the power of levying taxes duties &c., the prohibition in Sect. 4 Art. VI that no tax should be laid on exports. He was unwilling to trust to its being done in a future article. He hoped the North^n States did not mean to deny the Southern this security. It would hereafter be as desirable to the former when the latter should become the most populous. He professed his jealousy for the productions of the Southern or as he called them, the staple States. He moved to insert the following amendment: "provided that no tax duty or imposition shall be laid by the Legislature of the U. States on articles exported from any State."

M^r Sherman had no objection to the proviso here, other than it would derange the parts of the report as made by the Committee, to take them in such an order.

M^r Rutlidge. It being of no consequence in what order points are decided, he should vote for the clause as it stood, but on condition that the subsequent part relating to negroes should also be agreed to.

M^r Governeur Morris considered such a proviso as inadmissible any where. It was so radically objectionable, that it might cost the whole system the support of some members. He contended that it would not in some cases be equitable to tax imports without taxing exports; and that taxes on exports would be often the most easy and proper of the two.

M^r Madison. 1. the power of laying taxes on exports is proper in itself, and as the States cannot with propriety exercise it separately, it ought to be vested in them collectively. 2. it might with particular advantage be exercised with regard to articles in which America was not rivalled in foreign markets, as Tob^o &c. The contract between the French Farmers Gen^l and M^r Morris stipulating that if taxes s^d be laid in america on the export of Tob^o they s^d be paid by the Farmers, shewed that it was understood by them, that the price would be thereby raised in America, and consequently the taxes be paid by the European Consumer. 3. it would be unjust to the States whose produce was exported by their neighbours, to leave it subject to be taxed by the latter. This was a grievance which had already filled N.H. Con^t N. Jer^y Del: and N. Carolina with loud complaints, as it related to imports, and they would be equally authorized by taxes by the States on exports. 4. The South^n States being most in danger and most needing naval protection, could the less complain if the burthen should be somewhat heaviest on them. 5. we are not providing for the present moment only, and time will equalize the situation of the States in this matter. He was for these reasons ag^{st} the motion.

M^r Williamson considered the clause proposed ag^{st} taxes on exports as reasonable and necessary.

M^r Elseworth was ag^{st} Taxing exports; but thought the prohibition stood in the most proper place, and was ag^{st} deranging the order reported by the Committee.

M^r Wilson was decidedly ag^{st} prohibiting general taxes on exports. He dwelt on the injustice and impolicy of leaving N. Jersey Connecticut &c. any longer subject to the exactions of their commercial neighbours.

M^r Gerry thought the legislature could not be trusted with such a power. It might ruin the Country. It might be exercised partially, raising one and depressing another part of it.

M^r Gov^r Morris. However the legislative power may be formed, it will if disposed be able to ruin the Country. He considered the taxing of exports to be in many cases highly politic. Virginia has found her account in taxing Tobacco. All Countries having peculiar articles tax the exportation of them; as France her wines and brandies. A tax here on lumber, would fall on the W. Indies & punish their restrictions on our trade. The same is true of live stock and in some degree of flour. In case of a dearth in the West Indies, we may extort what we please. Taxes on exports are a necessary source of revenue. For a long time the people of America will not have money to pay direct taxes. Seize and sell their effects and you push them into Revolts.

M^r Mercer was strenuous against giving Congress power to tax exports. Such taxes are impolitic, as encouraging the raising of articles not meant for exportation. The States had now a right where their situation permitted, to tax both the imports and the exports of their uncommercial neighbours. It was enough for them to sacrifice one half of it. It had been said the Southern States had most need of naval protection. The reverse was the case. Were it not for promoting the carrying trade of the North^n States, the South^n States could let the trade go into foreign bottoms, where it would not need our protection. Virginia by taxing her tobacco had given an advantage to that of Maryland.

M^r Sherman. To examine and compare the States in relation to imports and exports will be opening a boundless field. He thought the matter had been adjusted, and that imports were to be subject, and exports not, to be taxed. He thought it wrong to tax exports except it might be such articles as ought not to be exported. The complexity of the business in America would render an equal tax on exports impracticable. The oppression of the uncommercial States was guarded ag^{st} by the power to regulate trade between the States. As to compelling foreigners, that might be done by regulating trade in general. The Government would not be trusted with such a power. Objections are most likely to be excited by considerations relating to taxes & money. A power to tax exports would shipwreck the whole.

M^r Carrol was surprised that any objection should be made to an exception of exports from the power of taxation.

It was finally agreed that the question concerning exports sh^d lie over for the place in which the exception stood in the report: Mary^d alone voting ag^{st} it.

Sect: 1. (Art. VII) agreed to; M^r Gerry alone answering, no.

Clause for regulating commerce with foreign nations &c. agreed to nem. con. for coining money. ag^d to nem. con. for regulating foreign coin. d^o d^o. for fixing standard of weights & measures. d^o d^o.

"To establish post-offices," M^r Gerry moved to add, and post-roads. M^r Mercer 2^{ded}. & on question

N.H. no. Mass. ay. C^t no. N.J. no. Pen^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N.C. no. S.C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out "and emit bills on the credit of the U. States"--If the United States had credit such bills would be unnecessary; if they had not, unjust & useless.

M^r Butler, 2^{ds} the motion.

M^r Madison, will it not be sufficient to prohibit the making them a tender? This will remove the temptation to emit them with unjust views. And promissory notes in that shape may in some emergencies be best.

M^r Gov^r Morris, striking out the words will leave room still for notes of a responsible minister which will do all the good without the mischief. The Monied interest will oppose the plan of Government, if paper emissions be not prohibited.

M^r Ghorum was for striking out, without inserting any prohibition, if the words stand they may suggest and lead to the measure.

Col. Mason had doubts on the subject. Cong^s he thought would not have the power unless it were expressed. Though he had a mortal hatred to paper money, yet as he could not forsee all emergencies, he was unwilling to tie the hands of the Legislature. He observed that the late war could not have been carried on, had such a prohibition existed.

Mr. Ghorum. The power as far as it will be necessary or safe, is involved in that of borrowing.

M^r Mercer was a friend to paper money, though in the present state & temper of America, he should neither propose nor approve of such a measure. He was consequently opposed to a prohibition of it altogether. It will stamp suspicion on the Government to deny it a discretion on this point. It was impolitic also to excite the opposition of all those who were friends to paper money. The people of property would be sure to be on the side of the plan, and it was impolitic to purchase their further attachment with the loss of the opposite class of Citizens.

M^r Elseworth thought this a favorable moment to shut and bar the door against paper money. The mischiefs of the various experiments which had been made, were now fresh in the public mind and had excited the disgust of all the respectable part of America. By withholding the power from the new Govern^t more friends of influence would be gained to it than by almost any thing else. Paper money can in no case be necessary. Give the Government credit, and other resources will offer. The power may do harm, never good.

M^r Randolph, notwithstanding his antipathy to paper money, could not agree to strike out the words, as he could not foresee all the occasions that might arise.

M^r Wilson. It will have a most salutary influence on the credit of the U. States to remove the possibility of paper money. This expedient can never succeed whilst its mischiefs are remembered. And as long as it can be resorted to, it will be a bar to other resources.

M^r Butler remarked that paper was a legal tender in no Country in Europe. He was urgent for disarming the Government of such a power.

M^r Mason was still averse to tying the hands of the Legislature altogether. If there was no example in Europe as just remarked it might be observed on the other side, that there was none in which the Government was restrained on this head.

M^r Read, thought the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations.

M^r Langdon had rather reject the whole plan than retain the three words ("and emit bills").

On the motion for striking out

N.H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N.J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay.[31] N.C. ay. S.C. ay. Geo. ay.

[31] This vote in the affirmative by Virg^a was occasioned by the acquiescence of M^r Madison who became satisfied that striking out the words would not disable the Gov^t from the use of public notes as far as they could be safe & proper; & would only cut off the pretext for a paper currency and particularly for making the bills a tender either for public or private debts.--Madison's Note.

The clause for borrowing money, agreed to nem. con.

Adj^d.

FRIDAY AUGUST 17. IN CONVENTION

Art. VII. Sect. 1. resumed, on the clause, "to appoint Treasurer by ballot,"

M^r Ghorum moved to insert "joint" before ballot, as more convenient as well as reasonable, than to require the separate concurrence of the Senate.

M^r Pinkney 2^{ds} the motion. M^r Sherman opposed it as favoring the larger States.

M^r Read moved to strike out the clause, leaving the appointment of the Treasurer as of other officers to the Executive. The Legislature was an improper body for appointments. Those of the State legislatures were a proof of it. The Executive being responsible would make a good choice.

M^r Mercer 2^{ds} the motion of M^r Read.

On the motion for inserting the word "joint" before ballot

N.H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. N.J. no. P^a ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N.C. ay. S.C. ay. Geo. ay.

Col. Mason in opposition to M^r Read's motion desired it might be considered to whom the money would belong; if to the people, the legislature representing the people ought to appoint the keepers of it.

On striking out the clause as amended by inserting "Joint"

N.H. no. Mass. no. C^t no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N.C. no. S.C. ay. Geo. no.

"To constitute inferior tribunals" agreed to nem. con.

"To make rules as to captures on land & water" d^o d^o.

"To declare the law and punishment of piracies and felonies &c &c." considered.

M^r Madison moved to strike out "and punishment &c."

M^r Mason doubts the safety of it, considering the strict rule of construction in criminal cases. He doubted also the propriety of taking the power in all these cases wholly from the States.

M^r Govern^r Morris thought it would be necessary to extend the authority further, so as to provide for the punishment of counterfeiting in general. Bills of exchange for example might be forged in one State and carried into another.

It was suggested by some other member that foreign paper might be counterfeited by Citizens; and that it might be politic to provide by national authority for the punishment of it.

M^r Randolph did not conceive that expunging "the punishment" would be a constructive exclusion of the power. He doubted only the efficacy of the word "declare."

M^r Wilson was in favor of the motion. Strictness was not necessary in giving authority to enact penal laws; though necessary in enacting & expounding them.

On motion for striking out "and punishment" as moved by M^r Madison

N.H. no. Mass. ay. C^t no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N.C. ay. S.C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out "declare the law" and insert "punish" before "piracies," and on the question.

N.H. ay. Mass. ay. C^t no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N.C. no. S.C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison & M^r Randolph moved to insert "define &," before "punish."

M^r Wilson thought "felonies" sufficiently defined by common law.

M^r Dickenson concurred with M^r Wilson.

M^r Mercer was in favor of the amendment.

M^r Madison. Felony at common law is vague. It is also defective. One defect is supplied by Stat: of Anne as to running away with vessels which at co[~m]on law was a breach of trust only. Besides no foreign law should be a standard farther than is expressly adopted. If the laws of the States were to prevail on this subject, the Citizens of different States would be subject to different punishments for the same offence at Sea. There would be neither uniformity nor stability in the law--The proper remedy for all these difficulties was to vest the power proposed by the term "define" in the Nat^l legislature.

M^r Gov^r Morris would prefer designate to define, the latter being as he conceived, limited to the preexisting meaning.

It was said by others to be applicable to the creating of offences also, and therefore suited the case both of felonies & of piracies. The motion of M^r M. & M^r R. was agreed to.

M^r Elseworth enlarged the motion so as to read "to define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the U. States, and offences ag^{st} the law of Nations" which was agreed to nem. con.

"To subdue a rebellion in any State, on the application of its legislature"

M^r Pinkney moved to strike out, "on the application of its legislature".

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ds}.

M^r L. Martin opposed it as giving a dangerous & unnecessary power. The consent of the State ought to precede the introduction of any extraneous force whatever.

M^r Mercer supported the opposition of M^r Martin.

M^r Elseworth proposed to add after "legislature," "or Executive."

M^r Gov^r Morris. The Executive may possibly be at the head of the Rebellion. The Gen^l Gov^t should enforce obedience in all cases where it may be necessary.

M^r Elseworth. In many cases The Gen^l Gov^t ought not to be able to interpose, unless called upon. He was willing to vary his motion so as to read "or without it when the legislature cannot meet."

M^r Gerry was ag^{st} letting loose the myrmidons of the U. States on a State without its own consent. The States will be the best Judges in such cases. More blood would have been spilt in Mass^{ts} in the late insurrection, if the Gen^l Authority had intermeddled.

M^r Langdon was for striking out as moved by M^r Pinkney. The apprehension of the national force, will have a salutary effect in preventing insurrections.

M^r Randolph. If the Nat^l Legislature is to judge whether the State legislature can or cannot meet, that amendment would make the clause as objectionable as the motion of M^r Pinkney.

M^r Gov^r Morris. We are acting a very strange part. We first form a strong man to protect us, and at the same time wish to tie his hands behind him. The legislature may surely be trusted with such a power to preserve the public tranquillity.

On the motion to add, "or without it (application) when the legislature cannot meet"

N.H. ay. Mass. no. C^t ay. P^a div^d. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N.C. div^d. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. So agreed to.

M^r Madison and M^r Dickenson moved to insert as explanatory, after "State"--"against the Government thereof". There might be a rebellion ag^{st} the U. States--which was agreed to nem. con.

On the clause as amended

N.H. ay. Mass.[32] abs^t. C^t ay. Pen. abs^t. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N.C. no. S.C. no. Georg. ay.--so it was lost.

[32] In the printed Journal, Mas. no.--Madison's Note.

"To make war"

M^r Pinkney opposed the vesting this power in the Legislature. Its proceedings were too slow. It w^d meet but once a year, the H^s of Rep^s would be too numerous for such deliberations. The Senate would be the best depository, being more acquainted with foreign affairs, and most capable of proper resolutions. If the States are equally represented in the Senate, so as to give no advantage to the large States, the power will notwithstanding be safe, as the small have their all at stake in such cases as well as the large States. It would be singular for one authority to make war, and another peace.

M^r Butler. The Objections ag^{st} the Legislature lie in a great degree ag^{st} the Senate. He was for vesting the power in the President, who will have all the requisite qualities, and will not make war but when the Nation will support it.

M^r Madison and M^r Gerry moved to insert "declare," striking out "make" war; leaving to the Executive the power to repel sudden attacks.

M^r Sherman thought it stood very well. The Executive sh^d be able to repel and not to commence war. "Make" is better than "declare" the latter narrowing the power too much.

M^r Gerry never expected to hear in a republic a motion to empower the Executive alone to declare war.

M^r Elsworth. There is a material difference between the cases of making war and making peace. It sh^d be more easy to get out of war, than into it. War also is a simple and overt declaration, peace attended with intricate & secret negociations.

M^r Mason was ag^{st} giving the power of war to the Executive because not safely to be trusted with it; or to the Senate, because not so constructed as to be entitled to it. He was for clogging rather than facilitating war; but for facilitating peace. He preferred "declare" to "make."

On the motion to insert "declare"--in place of "make," it was agreed to.

N.H. no. Mass, abs^t. Con^t no.[33] P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N.C. ay. S.C. ay. Geo. ay.

[33] On the remark by M^r King that "make" war might be understood to "conduct" it which was an Executive function. M^r Elsworth gave up his objection, and the vote of Con. was changed to ay.--Madison's Note.

M^r Pinkney's motion to strike out whole clause, disag^d to without call of States.

M^r Butler moved to give the Legislature the power of peace, as they were to have that of war.

M^r Gerry 2^{ds} him. 8 Senators may possibly exercise the power if vested in that body, and 14 if all should be present; and may consequently give up part of the U. States. The Senate are more liable to be corrupted by an Enemy than the whole Legislature.

On the motion for adding "and peace" after "war,"

N.H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N.C. no. S.C. no. Geo. no.

Adjourned.

SATURDAY AUGUST 18. IN CONVENTION

M^r Madison submitted, in order to be referred to the Committee of detail the following powers as proper to be added to those of the General Legislature:

"To dispose of the unappropriated lands of the U. States."

"To institute temporary Governments for new States arising therein."

"To regulate affairs with the Indians as well within as without the limits of the U. States."

"To exercise exclusively Legislative authority at the seat of the General Government, and over a district around the same, not exceeding ---- square miles; the Consent of the Legislature of the State or States comprising the same, being first obtained."

"To grant charters of incorporation in cases where the public good may require them, and the authority of a single State may be incompetent"

"To secure to literary authors their copy rights for a limited time."

"To establish an University."

"To encourage by premiums & provisions, the advancement of useful knowledge and discoveries."

"To authorize the Executive to procure and hold for the use of the U. S. landed property for the erection of Forts, magazines, and other necessary buildings."

These propositions were referred to the Committee of detail which had prepared the Report and at the same time the following which were moved by M^r Pinkney:--in both cases unanimously:

"To fix and permanently establish the seat of Government of the U. S. in which they shall possess the exclusive right of soil & jurisdiction."

"To establish seminaries for the promotion of literature and the arts & sciences."

"To grant charters of incorporation."

"To grant patents for useful inventions."

"To secure to Authors exclusive rights for a certain time."

"To establish public institutions, rewards and immunities for the promotion of agriculture, commerce, trades and manufactures."

"That funds which shall be appropriated for the payment of public Creditors, shall not during the time of such appropriation, be diverted or applied to any other purpose and that the Committee prepare a clause or clauses for restraining the Legislature of the U. S. from establishing a perpetual revenue."

"To secure the payment of the public debt."

"To secure all creditors under the new Constitution from a violation of the public faith when pledged by the authority of the Legislature."

"To grant letters of mark and reprisal."

"To regulate Stages on the post roads."

M^r Mason introduced the subject of regulating the militia. He thought such a power necessary to be given to the Gen^l Government. He hoped there would be no standing army in time of peace, unless it might be for a few garrisons. The Militia ought therefore to be the more effectually prepared for the public defence. Thirteen States will never concur in any one system, if the disciplining of the Militia be left in their hands. If they will not give up the power over the whole, they probably will over a part as a select militia. He moved as an addition to the propositions just referred to the Comittee of detail, & to be referred in like manner, "a power to regulate the militia."

M^r Gerry remarked that some provision ought to be made in favor of public Securities, and something inserted concerning letters of marque, which he thought not included in the power of war. He proposed that these subjects should also go to a Committee.

M^r Rutlidge moved to refer a clause "that funds appropriated to public creditors should not be diverted to other purposes."

M^r Mason was much attached to the principle, but was afraid such a fetter might be dangerous in time of war. He suggested the necessity of preventing the danger of perpetual revenue which must of necessity subvert the liberty of any country. If it be objected to on the principle of M^r Rutlidge's motion that public Credit may require perpetual provisions, that case might be excepted; it being declared that in other cases, no taxes should be laid for a longer term than ---- years. He considered the caution observed in Great Britain on this point as the paladium of public liberty.

M^r Rutlidge's motion was referred--He then moved that a Grand Committee be appointed to consider the necessity and expediency of the U. States assuming all the State debts--A regular settlement between the Union & the several States would never take place. The assumption would be just as the State debts were contracted in the common defence. It was necessary, as the taxes on imports the only sure source of revenue were to be given up to the Union. It was politic, as by disburdening the people of the State debts it would conciliate them to the plan.

M^r King and M^r Pinkney seconded the motion. (Col. Mason interposed a motion that the Committee prepare a clause for restraining perpetual revenue, which was agreed to nem. con.)

M^r Sherman thought it would be better to authorize the Legislature to assume the State debts, than to say positively it should be done. He considered the measure as just and that it would have a good effect to say something about the matter.

M^r Elseworth differed from M^r Sherman. As far as the State debts ought in equity to be assumed, he conceived that they might and would be so.

M^r Pinkney observed that a great part of the State debts were of such a nature that although in point of policy and true equity they ought, yet would they not be viewed in the light of federal expenditures.

M^r King thought the matter of more consequence than M^r Elseworth seemed to do; and that it was well worthy of commitment. Besides the considerations of justice and policy which had been mentioned, it might be remarked that the State Creditors an active and formidable party would otherwise be opposed to a plan which transferred to the Union the best resources of the States without transferring the State debts at the same time. The State Creditors had generally been the strongest foes to the impost-plan. The State debts probably were of greater amount than the federal. He would not say that it was practicable to consolidate the debts, but he thought it would be prudent to have the subject considered by a Committee.

On M^r Rutlidge's motion, that a Com^e be appointed to consider of the assumption &c.

N. H. no. Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a div^d. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry's motion to provide for public securities, for stages on post roads, and for letters of marque & reprisal, were committed nem. con.

M^r King suggested that all unlocated lands of particular States ought to be given up if State debts were to be assumed:--M^r Williamson concurred in the idea.

A Grand Committee was appointed consisting of M^r Langdon, M^r King, M^r Sherman, M^r Livingston, M^r Clymer, M^r Dickenson, M^r M^cHenry, M^r Mason, M^r Williamson, M^r C. C. Pinkney, M^r Baldwin.

M^r Rutlidge remarked on the length of the Session, the probable impatience of the public and the extreme anxiety of many members of the Convention to bring the business to an end; concluding with a motion that the Convention meet henceforward precisely at 10 Oc A.M. and that precisely at 4 Oc P.M. the President adjourn the House without motion for the purpose, and that no motion to adjourn sooner be allowed.